LIFE: it begins in the womb

The whole point of the torture example was to look at an individual's personal assessment of what their life is worth in the moment.

The reality - in an objective sense - is that the value of life (be it from an internal or external perspective) is based largely on the quality of life.
If you can come up with some other measure I would like to hear it.

In the case of a brain that is not yet functional - there is no quality of life. There is nothing. In some cases - nothing would be better than something .. Life. The determining factor is the quality of that life.

We do not place a high value on the life of a cow... yet a cow is far more sentient than a non functioning brain.

Whether one thinks existence is a function of the God of Abraham -or some other force - the fact of the matter is that what ever force created humans the fact of the matter is that humans were created in a way that they must kill life to survive.

The non functioning brain has no life - no thoughts, memories, feelings and so on.

 

Are you saying a fetus's personal assessment of what its life is worth decides what its life is worth?

That seems rather absurd. Would you contend the same holds true for a baby or 2-year-old?

What about a manic bipolar person who sometimes wants to kill themselves but an hour later is perfectly happy and loving life?

In the present or the future?

 

What if it were medically possible to make an adult human's brain "non-functional" temporarily? Perhaps with the use of some pharmaceutical neurotransmitter blocker?

Would their life cease to have worth during this time period?

Of course the memories would still be stored in the brain, but the brain would be temporarily unable to access them.

It seems to me then that either memories and/or future potentiality have to be important deciding factors in determining inherent human worth.

 

If the fetus has a soul - and that soul will quickly go on to live another life ... does this change things - especially given that it has had "no life" yet here. What difference does it make if one is waiting in the queue - whether one gets to live this live or the next.

Murder assumes that a human exists ... My assumption is that prior to significant brain function a human does not exist.

So then - one day - some configuration of matter and energy came together and gained knowledge of itself - attained awareness of its own existence.

We know this happened - and in fact it is one of the few things we do know for sure - because we exist.

So then .. prior to existence there is a finite probability that matter and energy could come together in a particular configuration - that specific configuration of matter and energy then realized that it existed - and this was you.

Now - the probability of this happening is pretty low. Regardless there is a finite probability that this configuration could happen again.

In an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities happen- not just once but an infinite number of times.

Existence is eternal.

 

We could likewise also ask what difference it makes to a woman, since pregnancy makes up an infinitesimally tiny sliver of her overall existence.

 

If there's a soul and existence continues on beyond death, there's a high plausibility there's also a God too. In which case, the morality of killing may well go beyond the issue of just simply causing someone to cease to exist.

There might also be the issue of what you actually believed, and how genuinely you believed it. If you did not actually really believe in an afterlife and were just using that as a mental excuse, what you did would be tantamount to attempted murder. So could still have some pretty severe moral repercussions even if you did not actually cause that person to cease existing. That may be a little too deep for some of you.

 

The fetus does not have a personal assessment. Nor do I claim that a personal assessment necessarily determines value. The point is to show that the value of life - in of itself - is questionable.

 

In other words, it only matters if it was loved by someone else, particularly the mother?

 

It makes what ever difference her that it makes. I believe in individual liberty - that I should not force my beliefs on others. You are crossing that boundary.

 

I'll agree. The value of life can in some situations potentially be questionable. But you still haven't demonstrated a connection between any of the examples you've used and the situation of a fetus.

A woman also potentially crosses this boundary when she decides to abort.

 

Nope- it mattes whether or not the entity has the capability to perceive that love. A child might love a teddy bear - this does not turn the teddy bear into a human. Now of the teddy bear actually could perceive that love ...that would be a different story.

 

This again assumes the zygote is a human - with rights, including the right to life.

 

And you can’t show a hereafter...it’s just a need

 

What does "capability" mean exactly?
Is that present or future?

What if it can't perceive love right now, but can do it in the next 2 minutes?
What if it can't perceive love right now but can do it in the next 2 weeks? Or 6 months?

Can a baby they've just brought home from the hospital perceive love yet?
How about a baby left in an incubator that hasn't had any human contact?

 

I think I can come close:

One day - some configuration of matter and energy came together and gained knowledge of itself - attained awareness of its own existence.

We know this happened - and in fact it is one of the few things we do know for sure - because we exist.

So then .. prior to existence there is a finite probability that matter and energy could come together in a particular configuration - that specific configuration of matter and energy then realized that it existed - and this was you.

Now - the probability of this happening is pretty low. Regardless there is a finite probability that this configuration could happen again.

In an infinite amount of time - all finite probabilities happen- not just once but an infinite number of times.

Existence is eternal.

 

And that day isn't necessarily the day of birth.

 

Obviously it means in the present. I have already defined what I mean by significant brain function ... and yes a baby just brought home from the hospital perceives a whole lot ... unlike 7 months prior when it perceived nothing.

What you are claiming is that we should classify a Fetus on pare with a living human on the basis of characteristics it does not currently have but, might or will have in the future.

As stated previously I am willing to entertain arguments along this line. You have not trotted your argument out very well though. There needs to be a why ... why should we classify this entity as something it is not now - but might be in the future .. and where along the line should we begin.

Should we classify a sperm as human - and give them rights and start charging people who masturbate with murder ? - on the basis that the sperm on the basis of characteristics it does not currently have but on the basis of something the sperm might help to create in the future ?

 

I would say - and have argued - that this day is prior to birth.

 

So then, you believe a fetus can feel "love, companionship, friendship, honor, integrity, pleasure, and memories" before birth?


This was your exact prior quote:

 

Do you believe that day is before or after the fetus is sucking its thumb?

 

Not all those things - pleasure/pain and memories for sure.

 

That day is when then significant brain function exists. Prior to that no cognition is possible. Frogs legs can be made to twitch after it dies .. does this mean the frog still thinks ?

 

OK then, thumb sucking does not qualify as "significant brain function" by your definition.

 

What you're saying, what you're seeming to imply, the only way your argument could remain consistent, is that a child inside the womb can perceive love.
Is that correct?

 

In the words of Prince Charles - and you have to read this in a really cheesy thick British accent " I mean .. what is Love really .. what is love"

The fetus feels comfortable, safe, warm, well taken care of, has external stimulus ( can hear music and voices), perhaps senses the energy of the mother, begins to bond. Sure.. why not.