Man-Made Global Warming Theory Takes Major Hit

When I use "heat", it is defined as "the flow of thermal energy". It is not thermal energy itself.

 

Heat is simply the flow of thermal energy.

 

CO2 is not a "magick blanket", which lets thermal energy in but yet somehow doesn't let it back out...

No, it can't. This denies the the 1st & 2nd laws of thermodynamics, as well as the stefan-boltzmann law.

This argument is what I have come to understand as the "magick bouncing photon argument". You are arguing that a photon of IR light can be emitted from the surface, absorbed by CO2, re-emitted back to the surface, absorbed by the surface, re-emitted from the surface, ad infinitum... Essentially, the photon never leaves the Earth, but just bounces back and forth as if it were a magick superball, all while the sun keeps adding in more photons which will then also behave in this manner. The surface, then, is getting hotter and hotter, while the upper air is cooler because the photons are "trapped" from reaching the upper air.

This scheme is attempting to create energy from nothing, by means of ignoring the dissipation of energy. This denies the 1st law of thermodynamics.

This scheme is also attempting to reduce entropy by means of warming the surface while cooling the upper air. It is attempting to create a perpetual motion machine of the 2nd order... It is denying the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

This scheme is also attempting to simultaneously reduce radiance (by means of not allowing the photon to escape) while increasing temperature. This is denying the stefan-boltzmann law, which states that radiance and temperature are directly proportional to each other.

 

I’ve thoroughly disproven your claim above. This is basic 6th grade earth science.

https://history.aip.org/climate/co2.htm

 

False Authority Fallacy. 'holy link' dismissed on sight.

Holy links are not science. Science is a set of falsifiable theories. See the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics... Or have you falsified it?

 

Lol, you were just thoroughly proven wrong, again.

Green house gasses do not violate the second law of thermodynamics. Don’t you find it strange that myself, and numerous other people have provided you with the science showing you how greenhouse gasses work, and your counter to that is “Nuh uh”? You have not offered anything which disproves long settled science. I’m sure the ENTIRE scientific community would appreciate your ground breaking insights. You would surely win a Nobel prize for completely disproving physics.

This is basic 6th grade science. It’s amusing you still throw out logical terms you don’t understand though.

 

It's true that "greenhouse gas" is a misnomer. Greenhouses heat up by blocking convection; gases like water vapor and CO2 warm the earth by blocking radiation.

 

Dunno where the hell you got that idea, but it wasn't from yours truly. Hell, even if the atmosphere were nothing but equal parts water vapor and CO2, plenty of photons would still escape, because:

• Those gases are transparent to visible wavelengths, and to some IR wavelengths.
• A GHG molecule that absorbs photons becomes an isotropic radiator, so it will emit about as many photons away from the Earth as towards it.

Swell, take it up with the author of that scheme, which sure as Hell isn't me.

 

Don't listen to these bozos who pretend to know what they are talking about!

CO2 absorbs very specific inrared wavelengths of light and warms. The heat absorbed is transferred into the surrounding air. The heat rises and slowly dissipates into space.

All light of that wavelength is fully absorbed from sunlight before it reaches the earth. The earth, pavement, rock, etc. absorbs visible light and emitts some of the infrared light. That light would quickly leave the earth except it eventually hits CO2 atoms heating those atoms and the surrounding atmosphere around those atoms. All of that specific infrared wavelength of light is fully absorbed by CO2 before it leaves the earth into space.

In short, increasing CO2 does not increase how much of this specific light is converted into heat because all of this specific light is absorbed from the sun before it hits the earth and all the light from the earth is absorbed before it can leave into space. You cannot have more than 100% absorption.

The issue is not how much is absorbed but how soon and where it is absorbed in our atmosphere.

Infrared light from earth will be absorbed closer and closer to the earth making it take longer for the heat to rise and dissipate into space.

In areas with the most sun this affect will be countered by the fact that less energy from the sun will reach the earth's lower atmosphere.
Infrared light from the sun will be absorbed in the upper atmosphere sooner and the resulting heat will be able to dissipate into space sooner.

This means that the greatest rise occurs with areas and periods were the temperature would normally be the coldest not the hottest. This is because it will take longer for heat absorbed closer to the earth to escape than heat that is absorbed higher up in the atmosphere.
This means nights and the arctic will be less and less cold. Peak hot periods in the day and in the center of the earth will not see very much rise in temperatures.

 

By CO2? Really?

 

Yes, but it's a very specific wavelength. It isn't even the full infrared spectrum.

Alarmist Position: https://skepticalscience.com/saturated-co2-effect.htm
Skeptic position: http://nov79.com/gbwm/ntyg.html

Other greenhouse gases absorb different infrared frequencies of light that CO2 does not.

 

Your link - authored, evidently, by one Gary Novak, an "independent scientist", whatever the hell that means - says there are three. That aside, I see nothing on that page supporting the claim that "[a]ll light of that wavelength is fully absorbed from sunlight [by CO2] before it reaches the earth."

 

He used the word saturated. Here is the graph from NASA... https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MODIS_ATM_solar_irradiance.png

There is a small amount of solar energy that gets through at the smallest band but it's at a very low energy level.

The middle band is also absorbed by water. Unlike CO2, H2O sits lower in the atmosphere so most light absorbed as heat by H2O will radiate into the lower atmosphere and take longer to escape into space.
Increasing CO2 in the upper atmosphere will prevent more light from being absorbed by H2O and warming the lower atmosphere. This only pertains to sunlight comming from space into the earth and not light leaving.

 

Two things:

• The dips in the lower trace you presumably refer to relate to H2O and CO2 together.
• The lower trace is labeled "Direct Solar Irradiation at Sea Level", so it presumably takes no account of indirect radiation that nevertheless originates with the Sun and makes its way to Earth via reradiation from a GHG molecule.

And you get that idea where, exactly?

 

From this site you can see the two pie charts. The Stratosphere being higher up. The CO2 concentration is the same between the two levels of atmosphere but if you look at water you can see that the Stratosphere is much drier.

http://sites.gsu.edu/geog1112/lab-5-part-2/


I'll review what they mean by direct solar radiation. It was my assumption that it means without interferance from clouds or other things that might filter the light. I did not think it referred to any feedback effect from other greenhouses gases. It's seems more likely that these are measured directly taken at sea level without adjusting or removing any IR emitted by the heating of other gases.

 

I'm not talking about anything like that, I'm talking about every GHG molecule being an isotropic radiator, as I noted in #458.

 

Yes all molecules emit photons from all sides and all directions when they are excited/heated. I fail to see how that is relevant to the absorption of direct sunlight.

It comes more into play with transfer of energy between atoms. This is more important in how fast that energy can leave the atmosphere. The photons that emitted toward the earth will also reflect in part back towards space so not all are absorbed by the Earth. However photons emitted into space are 100% going to continue in that direction. Most of the photons emitted by gasses in the middle of the atmosphere will be re-absorbed as heat and then the heat will move upward.

 

AFAIK, there's nothing special about photons emitted by the Sun; so shortly after one of them is absorbed by a GHG molecule in the stratosphere, a photon is emitted in a random direction, which means about half will continue generally downward until they hit other GHG molecules, and so on, so the atmosphere will be heated directly, and a few of those IR photons will make it to the surface. At night, the same thing happens in the opposite direction, with two main differences:

• Earth's emission spectrum isn't nearly as broad as the Sun's, so more of it will be absorbed by GHGs.
• The density of GHGs at the surface is much higher than in the stratosphere, so a much higher percentage of re-emitted photons will be sent back to Earth at night than to the Sun in the daytime.

 

The first part is correct, although I'd say "reducing" rather than "blocking". Greenhouses work because they reduce heat (the flow of thermal energy). Their clear walls/roof allows the sun to heat the greenhouse, yet those same walls/roof also reduces the coupling (convection) between the greenhouse air and the outside air.

The second part is fallacious from the start because it is attempting to equivocate a closed convective system (greenhouse) with an open convective system (atmosphere). The second part is also wrong because it is attempting to trap light, which violates Planck's Law. It also violates the Stefan-Boltzmann Law because it is attempting to reduce radiance of Earth while simultaneously increasing temperature of Earth. Radiance and temperature, per the SB Law, are directly proportional. It also violates the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics because it is attempting to make heat flow from cold to hot, and is attempting to decrease entropy in an isolated system.

Here are the 1st & 2nd Laws of Thermodynamics as well as the Stefan Boltzmann Law... Tell me how the "greenhouse effect" works without violating these laws...

1st law of thermodynamics: energy(t+1) = energy(t) (in other words, energy can neither be created nor destroyed)
2nd law of thermodynamics: entropy(t+1) >= entropy(t) (in other words, entropy must always increase or stay the same in any system. It can never decrease. This also means heat always flows from hot to cold, never the reverse.)
Stefan-Boltzmann law: radiance (in watts/sq meter) = 5.670367×10−8 * emissivity * temperature (in Kelvins) ^ 4

 

Not all photons are the same, nor do they have the same energy. The lower frequency light being emitted from CO2 is lower energy. It cannot heat something of higher energy (ie, the Earth's surface). The photon will simply pass right through or reflect/refract away.

 

Yes, it was from you. Now, you are letting about half of the photons escape, but the other half are still the "magick bouncing photon" that I referred to in the prior post.

 

No, I stated that it was radiation, not convection, that greenhouse gases block.

False. It simply absorbs and re-radiates light, a well-known process that yields the characteristic absorption and emission spectra of elements and compounds.

Wrong. Flat, outright wrong. The Stefan-Boltzmann equation describes the relationship between temperature and radiance of an emitting surface. But the earth's SOLID surface, whose temperature is the datum of interest, is not the EMITTING surface, which is the upper atmosphere.

False. Heat flows from cold to hot all the time. Consider the photons emitted by an LED light that find their way to the surface of the sun.

Wrong again. The system is not isolated, it is open.

Energy is being released by the sun, and absorbed by the earth. The earth's SURFACE reaches an equilibrium temperature that depends on the thickness (surface pressure) of the atmosphere and its transparency to incident and reradiated photons.

Heat is flowing from the hot sun to the warm earth, and from the warm earth to cold space.

That refers to the upper atmosphere where heat from the earth is released into space, not the earth's surface, whose IR emissions are intercepted by "greenhouse" gases.

Have you ever tried one of those reflective "space blankets"? They reflect infrared radiation from the body back to the body, warming it, much as "greenhouse" gases absorb infrared radiation from the earth's surface and then emit it in all directions, rewarming the surface. They work.

 

About 29% of the solar energy that arrives at the top of the atmosphere is reflected away. I copied the paragraph below from https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/features/EnergyBalance. Earth's energy budget.

The atmosphere and the surface of the Earth together absorb 71 percent of incoming solar radiation, so together, they must radiate that much energy back to space for the planet’s average temperature to remain stable. However, the relative contribution of the atmosphere and the surface to each process (absorbing sunlight versus radiating heat) is asymmetric. The atmosphere absorbs 23 percent of incoming sunlight while the surface absorbs 48. The atmosphere radiates heat equivalent to 59 percent of incoming sunlight; the surface radiates only 12 percent. In other words, most solar heating happens at the surface, while most radiative cooling happens in the atmosphere. How does this reshuffling of energy between the surface and atmosphere happen?

The surface of the earth does radiate away 12% of the incoming solar energy as long wave radiation. That is the radiation that escapes absorption by greenhouse gases, the atmospheric window. The top of

the atmosphere radiates away the remaining 59% of incoming solar energy.

 

httpsnasa.gov/f://earthobservatory.eatures/EnergyBalance





On average, 340 watts per square meter of solar energy arrives at the top of the atmosphere. Earth returns an equal amount of energy back to space by reflecting some incoming light and by radiating heat (thermal infrared energy). Most solar energy is absorbed at the surface, while most heat is radiated back to space by the atmosphere. Earth's average surface temperature is maintained by two large, opposing energy fluxes between the atmosphere and the ground (right)—the greenhouse effect. NASA illustration by Robert Simmon, adapted from Trenberth et al. 2009, using CERES flux

 

From Wikipedia "Effective Temperature" . The greenhouse effect lowers the earth's net emissivity

The effective temperature of a body such as a star or planet is the temperature of a black body that would emit the same total amount of electromagnetic radiation.[1] Effective temperature is often used as an
estimate of a body's surface temperature when the body's emissivity curve (as a function of wavelength) is not known.

When the star's or planet's net emissivity in the relevant wavelength band is less than unity (less than that of a black body), the actual temperature of the body will be higher than the effective temperature. The net emissivity may be low due to surface or atmospheric properties, including greenhouse effect.

Earth Effective Temperature[edit]
Main article: Earth's energy budget
The Earth has an albedo of about 0.306.[8] The emissivity is dependent on the type of surface and many climate models set the value of the Earth's emissivity to 1. However, a more realistic value is 0.96.[9] The Earth is a fairly fast rotator so the area ratio can be estimated as 1/4. The other variables are constant. This calculation gives us an effective temperature of the Earth of 252 K (−21 °C). The average temperature of the Earth is 288 K (15 °C). One reason for the difference between the two values is due to the greenhouse effect, which increases the average temperature of the Earth's surface.

Below is from Columbia education "Solar radiation and earth's energy balance

Because the atmosphere is almost transparent to sunlight, all that is absorbed at the surface results in warming and the emission of IR radiation; this radiation cannot freely escape into space because of absorption in the atmosphere by trace gases such as water vapor and carbon dioxide (CO2). These absorbing gases and their surrounding air warm up, emitting radiation downward, towards the Earth's surface, as well as upward, towards space. This effectively traps part of the IR radiation between ground and the lower 10 km of the atmosphere. This reduction in the efficiency of the Earth to lose heat causes the surface temperature to rise above the effective temperature calculated above (Te) until finally, enough heat is able to escape to space to balance the incoming solar radiation. The effect is analogous to that of a blanket that traps the body heat preventing it from escaping into the room and thus keeps us warm on cold nights.

All that the IR absorbing gases do is make it more difficult for heat to escape, they don't (and can't) stop the heat output, because half of their emission is directed upward towards space. The greenhouse effect forced the planet to raise its surface temperature until the amount of heat radiated from the top of the absorbing layer is equal to the solar radiation at the top of the atmosphere. It is at the top of the absorbing layer that the effective temperature is reached, while down at the surface of the Earth it is much warmer.