You know nothing, anyone attacking any UK politician should have the full force of the law applied to them, got that, unequivocal enough for you sunshine, understand it. Piss on your accusations does it.
He isn't calling for that at all, so stop lying. He wants, as May actually re-iterated, to re-house as many people as possible within the borough. May was interviewed on Newsnight yesterday and said exactly that. She added that if accommodation couldn't be found within Kensington and Chelsea, they would be re-housed as close as possible to the area. Where's your 'luxury treatment' now?
I expect SS has gone off to take part in the Great Get Together Day, to celebrate the life of the last politician murdered in this country, by a right wing terrorist.
They think he's wanting 'rich people's houses to be seized' and given to the victims of Grenfell https://twitter.com/Freeman_George/status/875980199053201408 and https://twitter.com/francescrook/status/875981822043332608
You mentioned that some of the tenants were White. I just pointed out that some of their neighbors were not. It seems to have been a diverse area. I did read about the property prices and Steyn mentioned them as well. If land prices are that high in London it would make some sense to house them where property is less expensive, given that the taxpayers are the ones paying for it. My wife's mother bought her council flat and was very pleased she had her own place. The council flats were a scam and Thatcher made home ownership, and thus home pride, possible,. If there is no housing for lower paid workers services will come to a halt, London will become an unattractive place to live and property values will come down. This is not a history making occasion yet governments will often apply laws they hope will effect the immediate rather than looking at the long term. Future governments are often stuck with the band aid solutions previous governments made. This is a great example of what I was getting at in the previous paragraphs. Ignore the market at your peril and let people make their own decisions about their property. Why would anyone want to live in London under these conditions? London was an attractive and interesting city at one time but I wouldn't want to live there now even if rents were well below market. If people are foolish enough to live 10 to a room then why stop them? It seems the public has come to rely too much on these 'Councils' and have lost all common sense in the process.
Big aplology for liking and unliking you if you noticed. I pressed the wrong button. and who is going to sweep the streets, nurse patients, teach in schools, drive the buses and a million other things. A city needs all kinds of people. You think London should just be some gated community? I am not surprised. They were a gift. As I said bought at one third of market value....and some, particularly in London were extremely good. The councils had bought up lots of property which needed a bit of doing up, not necessarily in estates. Old property which if bought then for about £30,000 (I third of value then) would likely be worth about £2,000,000 now. The selling of council houses was a gift to the few who became Thatcherites and helped her destroy social democracy in the UK. For the many they were a disaster. One of the biggest problems the UK has at the moment is a shortage of houses and house prices which make it unaffordable for people to buy until they are about in their mid thirties. Council housing brought decent quality houses for those in need. indeed. However everything you have said so far makes me believe you are giving the thumbs up to the eviction of the poor from London. If you are talking about the sale of council houses I think you will find it was. It was one of the ways as I said that Thatcher managed to destroy social democracy in this country and begin to bring in neo liberalism and corporate power which has brought us to the point we are at now and need to get out of - being a plutocracy. Along with this went all kinds of corruption. I am not sure what you are saying here. Are you saying Thatcher was ignoring the market when she sold off properties which belonged to everyone and no one to the current occupiers for only30% of the market value? Are you talking about keeping people housed by paying extortionate rents which were unaffordable to landlords to keep people housed? Council houses were one of the things brought in in order that there would not be a revolution after WW2. Thatcher managed to get people to forget that if you do not stand together the 0.1% will eat you. Now they are eating people. Well a lot of these people are as you said new immigrants. It can be difficult to move when you do not have money. If you had money you would not be living under these conditions. What else do the new immigrants know? and on and on. How do you know what London is like now. Someone was mentioning staying somewhere in London for a short time. He had a good time. I imagine there are plenty of different areas though I do acknowledge that there are some awful conditions. Like I said those prezzies of houses which were owned by everyone and no one being all but gifted to the current occupiers made people shut their eye and forget that if they do not stand together the 0.1% will take all. This too will change. Desperate enough is the correct description and the exploitation under which landlords have put people is against law in Britain. It is just finding the time to find them all. Despite having a mother in law who got a cheap council house you don't seem to understand how the UK works. You expect a city like London to look after itself? That would just be all the different strands of mafia with all that entails. Around 1970 a film came out called 'Cathy come home'. It was about a woman who had children and had lost her home. Social Workers came to take her children into care - separating them from their mother who they expected to look after herself. That film hit home and changes were made. We do have the opportunity to choose what kind of society we wish to build - as long as we take it. We have as we began this talk yesterday moved back to the level of inequality we had in Victorian Times. That is why people can be exploited as in the examples I gave you of the conditions under which they live..but you know the old saying when things move too far one way they turn around and move back. I suspect we are at such a point now. Since the election the Tories have said 'no more austerity'. The election result made them say they knew people had had enough of it. and we have got way off topic again. Enough!
Osborne really is getting his own back Read more: http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/16/gover...tting-fire-regulations-6713967/#ixzz4kGXJrnCL
Too late! I've had it photographed and will trot it out whenever the need arises. I owe you one. Worst case scenario? No one. Then property prices in a dirty, teacherless, nurseless city will tumble and make it more affordable. And all without council help. People, and markets, adjust. They do it all the time. Unless governments overly interfere. Yes, she traded the one she owned in Scotland for one in London, sold that for a huge profit and moved to Australia. But the Council housing was costing the taxpayers a fortune, the government work ethic was awful, and 'repairs' were being made to council housing that wasn't necessary or were caused deliberately. It was a good move to remove them from the taxpayers responsibility. You might want to look at things like Zoning Laws also. If property is unaffordable for individuals it's unaffordable for taxpayers also. Many of them were nothing more than slums, breeding poverty and violence. There is often similar problems wherever social housing is provided. Nothing beats pride of ownership. What I'm saying is that if people can't afford to live in London they should move elsewhere. I know they have a quite good transpiration system there. This 'social democracy' claim overlooks the riots, the strikes, the violence, the unemployment, the debts and corrupt union officials who felt they were running the country. This vague claim suggests that Thatcher wasn't elected by the people in a working democracy when of course she had huge support among the people.. What I'm saying is that Thatcher got the government out of the housing and maintenance business, an area where they had no business being anyway. It was a huge drain on the economy and suffered, naturally, from great abuse. .Other countries did far better by offering interest free loans, for example, for people to build their own homes after the war. This proved to be a far better long term solution than council flats, put people to work right away, and these people had an asset they could use for other loans, if they chose... Common sense dictates that if you can't afford to live in one part of a country, any country, then you move to another area which is more affordable. What person cannot possibly understand this basic law of economics? .If the people who don't understand basic economics are ever put in charge, as often seems to be the case, then London will continue slumward. I've been there over a dozen times, spent a lot of time in Britain, but have no desire to go back. I'm going to Prague soon but that's it for Europe. I've seen all the history, which I enjoyed, and now there are just better places to visit. If councils are going to pass their laws based on films rather than economics and a basic understanding of human nature then the decline will just continue. Interesting times.
I've lived in a couple of high-rise tower blocks in the past and always at the back of my mind was the thought- "how will I get out if there's a fire?" The blocks were all-electric and there was a strict council ban on bringing in cookers that used gas cylinders. I notice many of the tenants in the London block were immigrants, so maybe they preferred to use open-flame gas-cylinder methods of cooking, or traditional campfires.. PS- I currently live on the third floor of a small block and keep this 30-foot length of rope in the corner of the room to clamber down if there's a fire, so I should be alright unless I accidentally hang myself-
That rope looks suspect. I would consider pawning it and putting the funds toward a climbing rope that has some give, a simple climbing harness and a figure 8 rappelling gizmo. Might want to practice with it first. Falls don't hurt, only hitting the ground.
You need to make up your minds lads, whose side are you on? The British security services couldn't guarantee the protection to the British PM and yet you criticised her heavily for not turning up. What's your problem? Have you seen the faces of those people storming the British government buildings? Why hiding behind the masks? Half of those with salafi beards?
One of the people who escaped said that her neighbour - who warned her and dozens of others - told her his fridge had exploded/caught on fire. Wouldn't be the first time a faulty appliance had started a fire. Others have talked about problems with gas leaks (this tower had gas). Those seem pretty good laces to start. Of course, some of our more benighted souls have decided the 'truth' is more.....prosaic. No doubt they will claim a cover up when the facts do not accord with their imaginations.
Yes if I lived high up in a block I'd definitely think of getting a proper climbing rope and harness, or even a parachute (no I'm not joking!) I think the 9/11 death toll would have been much lower if the office workers had kept a 'chute handy in a locker. I'm not a chuting expert but I don't think smaller blocks like the London block are high enough to give a chute time to deploy after jumping out of your window unless maybe you could make your way up to the roof..
Third London Inferno Breaks Out Days After Grenfell Tower Disaster Londoners suspicious after 3 consecutive fires in heavily Muslim neighborhoods Massive inferno breaks out in East London residential block days after Grenfell Tower fire http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/81...-residential-firemen-block-investigation-team
Muslims are amazing. They celebrate the fire in London despite the fact that many of the victims are likely to be Muslims. Muslims Celebrate London Tower Fire (Despite Many of the Victims Being Muslim) https://www.prisonplanet.com/muslim...despite-many-of-the-victims-being-muslim.html Muslims and ISIS supporters on Twitter celebrated the London tower fire that has claimed at least six lives so far, despite many of the residents of the tower being Muslims. Yes, really. Greenfell Tower is located in Ladbroke Grove, an area of London populated mainly by poor ethnic minorities, many of them Muslims. Many of the affected families will be Muslim. A fundraiser for the victims of the fire also begins with the Arabic greeting “Assalamu Alaikum” (which means “peace be upon you”). However, this didn’t stop other Muslims and ISIS sympathizers gloating about the fire online. “Hell and good riddance,” wrote one Twitter user...
The Queen and the future heir to the throne both managed to visit the area without danger. Presumably either of them would be a huge 'prize' for any terrorist. Perhaps the 'security concerns' were to do with the anger of the local residents at what has just happened..
That could be the prime suspect.. Or else it could be a deliberate arson revenge attack by hardliner white patriot extremists because lefty voters recently won Kensington (where the block is)..
Likely reasons for the fire: Cooking/grease fire Smokers falling asleep/passing out drunk with their cigaretts. Druggies cooking their narcotics Generally dirty, lazy and nasty people allowing their rubbish too close to flames.
Drat, you've got me then! Yes they may well but even Adam Smith recognised that left to their own devices they would lead to hell on earth. Governments decide whether they are going to let areas go into what they call 'managed decline' and they are not going to let this happen to London. We need to bring this back to the topic. This relates to what we were discussing but is speaking in connection to Grenfell. https://theconversation.com/yes-the...tical-its-a-failure-of-many-governments-79599 You appear to believe as Thatcher did that there is no society!! That is a political view. In a democracy it is the responsibility of the State to offer the possibility of equality of opportunity to all it's citizens. That is something which political theorists when talking about democracy put very strongly. Democracy is about far more than just a vote ever four or five years. To continue in the way you are suggesting just letting everything hang out and the fittest taking what they want tends to either degrade into fascism or despotism or face revolution. As you will see above in the link to the White Paper even May has become aware that we need to do work in this country to provide affordable living accommodation for low wage workers. There is a possibility of charges for Corporate Manslaughter for what has happened at Grenfell Tower. http://theconversation.com/corporat...ring-justice-for-grenfell-tower-victims-79588 It would have been costing a hell of a lot less than the hotel accommodation which came into being when there was a shortage - ghastly accommodations, families living in high priced cheap hotel rooms paid for by the council with a cooking room and bathroom they shared with another ten families or so - or what came in, in the main 'housing benefit' where by people who could not afford the high price of rent would be subsidised by the council. Previously rather than the Government paying capitalists (landlords) we used to have fair rent acts where if the rent was excessive the tenant could take the landlord to court and get a fair rent. I suggest that what happened was that rather than help the needy with council houses, the subsidies were given to those who already had, that is the landlords. I seem to remember councils were also not allowed to use the small amount of money they got on their houses they were forced to sell at massive discount, to purchase or build more. Good for your mother in law, but her fortune was built at the cost of the needs of people in the present time - as I said May has at last recognised the need to start to provide affordable accommodation. When you do what the Government has done, that is put a fixed price on the benefit people can receive, hence they can only afford so much rent as well as making people homeless by charging them for having a spare room, you absolutely have to find a way of providing affordable accommodation or you are going to have mass homelessness/riots/increase in theft/revolution - or a Jeremy Corbyn Government No, they were not slums. However there were problems with 60's architecture - but I am sure that even so they were not slums. Particularly after Thatcher had created an underclass, some estates, particularly in large cities like London were impregnated with gang culture. Obviously homes there did not sell. I know you are saying that and obviously many people who can afford to have. What some people like to call 'white flight' from London was the desire for affordable housing. However London needs accommodation for low paid workers. That is reality. Now Thatcher gave away our social housing and London has turned into among other things a place for billionaires to make money on houses where most ordinary people do not have the hope of buying a garden shed. However as you know London needs these low paid workers. Thatcher gave away some more of the family silver, counsel houses and tried to rely on markets only but sneakily they were paying the capitalists subsidies and now. somewhat late we are discovering that we need houses for low waged workers. You do know that one of the ideas Brexiteers had in their minds for why they had to get Europeans out of the UK was that they needed the houses. It is very likely that that is the reason May realised she had better get started tout de suite on providing affordable housing because after Brexit, the Sun and the Mail, Tory propaganda mags are not going to be able to blame the lack of this on the EU - then we move to fascism, despotism, revolution - or a Jeremy Corbyn Government No. tbh you have just put in a load of things with no back up. The consensus of both Tory and Labour for instance after WW2 till Thatcherism was on full employment. We don't have many riots here. There were plenty between the two world wars and even I think during WW2 but that was dealt with by the Welfare state and the intent on equality of opportunity and social mobility. Then yes, there were some riots in the early 80's when Thatcher was PM. What 'the violence' Debt was cause by the oil embargo. Given that we were about to come into our own oil that could have been met in a different way and the Labour party was torn as to which way to go. As I remember two neo cons on the loan team demanded we make austerity cuts as part of the deal and also the loan was for considerably more than we needed. That I think could be said to be the time we first were snaired by neo liberalism. Strikes were far more about the effect of the cut backs than how they were reported in papers then, propaganda, and I guess because of that how they are remembered now. People were losing out big time. With inflation not being covered by wage increases they were finding it harder and harder to put food on the table. We are going through a similar situation now. Neo liberalism allows capital to be out of control. Democracy has failed through Governments inability to control capital and has got itself into the situation that the most wealthy are who our Governments respond to, not the will of the people. That is not democracy. Again if you start looking at academic political theorists they will argue that capitalism and democracy do not necessarily live that well together - without constraints at any rate - something which Adam Smith recognised. If you are interested https://theconversation.com/capitalism-and-democracy-part-1-62551 I am not arguing that she was not elected though our first past the post system is not necessarily particularly democratic in itself. The last Tory government for instance got something like 34% of the vote of those who voted and only 24% of those on the electoral roll. Hardly the majority of people. However the issue with democracy is about much more than a vote every 5 years. Thatcher bit into our democracy, she basically tore up our unwritten constitution - and sadly with the death of John Smith, leader of the labour party, who intended on earthing our democracy as a priority, written constitution, freedom on information, devolved assemblies leading possibly to a federal Britain and so on, when Labour got in, we got Blair instead who finished off the job Thatcher started and led us to our current Plutocracy. I am tired and I am going to have to leave this now. We can't continue these discussions. They are too off topic...another time, another thread apart from the small amount I managed to relate to Grenfell, the subject of this thread. .
Problems with safety over Gas was one of the things the tenants were trying to get the council to address for a long time without success. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...i-london-kensington-chelsea-gas-a7794031.html https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/jun/14/key-questions-about-the-grenfell-tower-fire You may be interested in the residents blog. https://grenfellactiongroup.wordpress.com/ Yes, I hear a lot of people are very scared.
I see a Hungarian scoundrel and his UK servants are out there stirring the trouble even further. We can expect now more violent demonstrations across London. Soros storm troopers are out there and they are up to no good. Cashing in on tragedy, how classy! I guess their game plan is to force Theresa May out of the office, install Corbyn as PM, and ultimately deny the will of the British people and force upon us another referendum in order to reverse the Brexit. By the way, Bernie gave few tips to Corbyn. Expect more violence.
I can't find a record of the number of survivors. However on one news item several days ago I caught a number which sounded around 100 (I think that was in addition to those in hospital) and I thought God there is going to be a massive death toll. I may however be quite wrong about that. If anyone knows anything else be good to put in.
