So, i have Morality, as a Real Thing, evidenced by: 1. Sociopaths 2. Conscience 3. An observation of a universal sense that transcends time, region, or culture. It is different from either instinct or human law. How can there be 'morality' in a godless universe? Must it not be denied, as a Real Thing? Must it not be dismissed as a delusion or human construct, in a godless universe?
Source for your claim here? Numerous scientific studies have been done on the evolution of a conscience in social species.
It isn't a logical progression. It is just a premise he keeps restating in different ways and claiming it is "self-evident." They are statements of faith. Don't count on him to defend them or even respond to arguments against the premises. He keeps refusing to.
The irony however is, whatever one can come up with is a statement of faith!!! We don't have proof of what conscience is!
I speculate that when a soul is given to a new baby, a set of Law is somehow coded to his spirit. That forms the basis of human morality and conscience and moral code. Ever since then, this new baby receives "education" from the environment, even when he's in womb. It all boils down to who can educate him. His parent can, say, play music for him such that he may develop an early sense about music. The advocate is, Satan and his horde of evil has all the ability to introduce an education to each and every new baby even when he's still in mother's womb. We mistakenly take this as the "original sin" though. The satanic process forms the root of society's culture. The culture then haunts back to affect how a baby's moral code is finalized. The analogy is like a pizza with toppings. The new baby is originally made as a pizza without toppings. The toppings are then added one by one during the development of this new baby, till his moral code is finally formed. His final moral code is thus a mixture of the part of God's Law embedded as the base, Satan's education, parents' education, society's education...perhaps more. The Final Judgment will be based on God's Law embedded objectively, not those toppings added by the third parties.
That's why we can speculate into all possibilities without ruling out any of them. Hmm, your reply here only shows that your logic is flawed, as usual as a typical atheist though. ^_^
I'm afraid you are badly, badly misreading my posts and, frankly, it looks like your bias against atheists might be causing some confirmation bias. I'm not ruling out any possibilities. The post you just responded to doesn't rule out any possibilities. Did the post say that it is impossible that God is the source of conscience? No. Not at all. In fact, I'm the one here arguing against ruling out possibilities. In case you haven't read the OP or the intervening posts: this entire thread is devoted to ruling out the possibility that philosophically-based morality can exist without God. That's. The. Entire. Point. Of. The. OP. I'm arguing against ruling out that possibility. I'm perfectly happy to speculate into all possibilities. The OP is not. The OP rules out thousands of possibilities and says that it is just "self-evident" that God is the only source for true morality. Your logic is flawed. You say we can speculate into all possibilities; then you'll have to speculate into atheistic possibilities. If you are open to such possibilities, then congrats, we are on the same page and you stand in disagreement with the OP's approach just as I do. Glad we could clear that up.
Yep, and even "survival of the fittest" tends to mischaracterized by some theists as this weird sort of pseudoscientific Social Darwinism. Living by the Golden Rule is actually a very good survival strategy (even a thriving strategy) for social animals.
And, where does the Golden Rule come from? So, if someone steals from me and I would be okay with someone if I stole from them to cut off my hand, would you be okay if I cut off their hand? If not, why? After all, I'm using the Golden Rule...
The Golden Rule has been around since Ancient Egypt, "Do to the doer to make him do". A meme I made that should highlight a better understanding.
Naw, probably from the example of Christ to love your enemies and your neighbor. It's something humans have to be taught or they descend into carnal and devilish hatred for one another. They become cannibals eating their own and their enemies.
Give an example of social animals that would not revert to survival of the fittest if their lives depended upon it? They all would revert to cannibalism as does man when put in the same position without an outside moral code from God.
There are countless examples of animals risking or sacrificing their lives to save their mate, their child, and other members of their social group. All eusocial animals will risk their lives to protect their home colony from Invaders, with no concern for their individual survival: ants, bees, wasps, termites, naked mole rats.
It's intuitively obvious. Not one of them by anyone who understands what conscience is, I'll warrant. And properly so, obviously. In the sense you're presumably using the term, not at all. What does that even mean? Assuming you have a conscience, don't you know what it is? Actually I'm pretty sure was around before the first human ever trod the Earth. Which might be interesting, were there any reason to believe they can elect to behave otherwise.
Why? In a godless universe, the golden rule would be stupid. It would not aid your survival. It would not gain you alliances. Only strength has value in a godless universe. Weak moralizing is for deluded people on their way to extinction, in a godless universe.
Exactly. The quality of an instinct is, *a largely inheritable and unalterable tendency of an organism to make a complex and specific response to environmental stimuli without involving reason* Instinct is not a moral choice, guided by a conscience or some inner 'sense' of morality. It is a reflex.. a response to something that requires no cognitive action. To equate morality (or conscience) as instinct destroys both terms, and leaves us in an undefined muddle of Orwellian relativity.
