Part 38 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

Well yeah, that's why God let it rain for 40 days & nights. But He spared Noah's family and a pair of every kind of animal...male & female. Scripture tells us why He did this.

We Read in Scripture

5 The Lord observed the extent of human wickedness on the earth, and he saw that everything they thought or imagined was consistently and totally evil. 6 So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them and put them on the earth. It broke his heart. 7 And the Lord said, "I will wipe this human race I have created from the face of the earth. Yes, and I will destroy every living thing—all the people, the large animals, the small animals that scurry along the ground, and even the birds of the sky. I am sorry I ever made them." 8 But Noah found favor with the Lord.---Genesis 6:5-8 NLT

 

Noah's grandkids didn't believe the flood story and he and their fathers told it to them. They worshiped idols and not their delusions.

 

Tuatara said: ↑
The amount of rain to fall in 40 days and 40 nights would have so much pressure it would kill off every living thing on this planet.

. Water only builds up when there is a barrier to prevent it making its way back to the ocean by gravity. Once that barrier is overcome it returns by waterways, like rivers, to the ocean. Overfill a dam and the water starts to flow by means of gravity, back to the lowest point, the ocean. Why do all rivers end up there?
Water comes from the ocean and eventually returns there. Noahs flood is impossible and a myth.

 

I wonder how many people actually believe there was a worldwide flood? I mean people over the age of 10.

 

I didnt when I was in 2nd grade

 

I think 10 is the outter limit.. Kids don't believe that a man can live inside a fish for 3 days either.

 

hahaha no...I believe that was the story where I confirmed as a small child...ok this is BS.

 

I think there are still many who believe the story - being brought up on the Bible as God's Word. Interestingly enough I was talking to some JW's in the town today and they still believe the Bible is true. I showed them some obvious errors and how ancient history disproved much of Biblical events. As usual they had no idea of ancient history. I was tempted to ask them why they continued to peddle obvious lies to their members, and the general public - but I refrained. I'm just waiting for them to ban their members talking to me. I've posed several questions in the past and they've had to ask their teachers for the answer - some of which I've never got, and another was hilarious. Ah well. Such is life.

 

Basic science should be a requirement to graduate from high school. I had to take Biology in 7th grade and Earth Science (which addressed Geology) in 8th grade. I think the average person really knows very little about science. The religious types who know science simply ignore any scientific reality when it conflicts with their mythology.

 

The thing about animals (land & marine) they have a God given amazing ability to adapt to their surroundings.

Many of today's marine organisms, especially estuarine and tidepool species, are able to survive large changes in salinity. For example, starfish will tolerate as low as 16-18 percent of the normal concentration of seawater.

There are migratory species of fish that travel between salt and fresh water. For example, salmon, striped bass, and Atlantic spurgeon spawn in fresh water and mature in salt water. Eels reproduce in salt water and grow to maturity in fresh water streams and lakes. So, many of today's species of fish are able to adjust to both fresh water and salt water.

There is also evidence of post-flood specialization within a kind of fish. For example, the Atlantic sturgeon is a migratory salt/freshwater species but the Siberian sturgeon (a different species of the same kind) lives only in fresh water.

Many families of fish contain both fresh and saltwater species. These include the families of toadfish, garpike, bowfin, sturgeon, herring/anchovy, salmon/trout/pike, catfish, clingfish, stickleback, scorpionfish, and flatfish. Indeed, most of the families alive today have both fresh and saltwater representatives. This suggests that the ability to tolerate large changes in salinity was present in most fish at the time of the flood. Specialization, through natural selection, may have resulted in the loss of this ability in many species since then.

Hybrids of wild trout (fresh water) and farmed salmon (migratory species) have been discovered in Scotland,[2] suggesting that the differences between freshwater and marine types may be quite minor. Indeed, the differences in physiology seem to be largely differences in degree rather than kind.

The kidneys of freshwater species excrete excess water (the urine has low salt concentration) and those of marine species excrete excess salt (the urine has high salt concentration). Saltwater sharks have high concentrations of urea in the blood to retain water in the saltwater environment whereas freshwater sharks have low concentrations of urea to avoid accumulating water. When sawfish move from salt water to fresh water they increase their urine output 20 fold, and their blood urea concentration decreases to less than one-third.

Major public aquariums use the ability of fish to adapt to water of different salinity from their normal habitat to exhibit freshwater and saltwater species together. The fish can adapt if the salinity is changed slowly enough.

So, many fish species today have the capacity to adapt to both fresh and salt water within their own lifetimes.

Aquatic air-breathing mammals such as whales and dolphins would have been better placed than many fish to survive the flood because of the turbidity of the water, changes in temperature, etc. The fossil record testifies to the massive destruction of marine life, with marine creatures accounting for 95 percent of the fossil record.[3] Some, such as trilobites and ichthyosaurs, probably became extinct at that time. This is consistent with the Bible account of the flood beginning with the breaking up of the "fountains of the great deep" (i.e., beginning in the sea; "the great deep" means the oceans).

There is also a possibility that stable fresh and saltwater layers developed and persisted in some parts of the ocean. Fresh water can sit on top of salt water for extended periods of time. Turbulence may have been sufficiently low at high latitudes for such layering to persist and allow the survival of both freshwater and saltwater species in those areas.

Conclusion

There are many simple, plausible explanations for how fresh and saltwater fish could have survived the flood. There is no reason to doubt the reality of the flood as described in the Bible.

https://christiananswers.net/q-aig/aig-c037.html

 

science (n.)

mid-14c., "what is known, knowledge (of something) acquired by study; information;" also "assurance of knowledge, certitude, certainty," from Old French science "knowledge, learning, application; corpus of human knowledge" (12c.), from Latin scientia "knowledge, a knowing; expertness," from sciens (genitive scientis) "intelligent, skilled," present participle of scire "to know," probably originally "to separate one thing from another, to distinguish," related to scindere "to cut, divide," from PIE root *skei- "to cut, split" (source also of Greek skhizein "to split, rend, cleave," Gothic skaidan, Old English sceadan "to divide, separate").

From late 14c. in English as "book-learning," also "a particular branch of knowledge or of learning;" also "skillfulness, cleverness; craftiness." From c. 1400 as "experiential knowledge;" also "a skill, handicraft; a trade." From late 14c. as "collective human knowledge" (especially that gained by systematic observation, experiment, and reasoning). Modern (restricted) sense of "body of regular or methodical observations or propositions concerning a particular subject or speculation" is attested from 1725; in 17c.-18c. this concept commonly was called philosophy. Sense of "non-arts studies" is attested from 1670s.


Science, since people must do it, is a socially embedded activity. It progresses by hunch, vision, and intuition. Much of its change through time does not record a closer approach to absolute truth, but the alteration of cultural contexts that influence it so strongly. Facts are not pure and unsullied bits of information; culture also influences what we see and how we see it. Theories, moreover, are not inexorable inductions from facts. The most creative theories are often imaginative visions imposed upon facts; the source of imagination is also strongly cultural. [Stephen Jay Gould, introduction to "The Mismeasure of Man," 1981]


In science you must not talk before you know. In art you must not talk before you do. In literature you must not talk before you think. [John Ruskin, "The Eagle's Nest," 1872]


The distinction is commonly understood as between theoretical truth (Greek episteme) and methods for effecting practical results (tekhne), but science sometimes is used for practical applications and art for applications of skill. To blind (someone) with science "confuse by the use of big words or complex explanations" is attested from 1937, originally noted as a phrase from Australia and New Zealand.

https://www.etymonline.com/word/science


2451. chokmah
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
skilful, wisdom, wisely, wit
From chakam; wisdom (in a good sense) -- skilful, wisdom, wisely, wit.


Proverbs 9:10 "The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding."

The Book of Wisdom
Chapter 9
1
God of my fathers, LORD of mercy. you who have made all things by your word
2
And in your wisdom have established man to rule the creatures produced by you,
3
To govern the world in holiness and justice, and to render judgment in integrity of heart:
4
Give me Wisdom, the attendant at your throne, and reject me not from among your children;
5
For I am your servant, the son of your handmaid, a man weak and short-lived and lacking in comprehension of judgment and of laws.
6
Indeed, though one be perfect among the sons of men, if Wisdom, who comes from you, be not with him, he shall be held in no esteem.
7
You have chosen me king over your people and magistrate for your sons and daughters.
8
You have bid me build a temple on your holy mountain and an altar in the city that is your dwelling place, a copy of the holy tabernacle which you had established from of old.
9
Now with you is Wisdom, who knows your works and was present when you made the world; Who understands what is pleasing in your eyes and what is conformable with your commands.
10
Send her forth from your holy heavens and from your glorious throne dispatch her That she may be with me and work with me, that I may know what is your pleasure.
11
For she knows and understands all things, and will guide me discreetly in my affairs and safeguard me by her glory;
12
Thus my deeds will be acceptable, and I shall judge your people justly and be worthy of my father's throne.
13
For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what our LORD intends?
14
For the deliberations of mortals are timid, and unsure are our plans.
15
For the corruptible body burdens the soul and the earthen shelter weighs down the mind that has many concerns.
16
And scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?
17
Or who ever knew your counsel, except you had given Wisdom and sent your holy spirit from on high?
18
And thus were the paths of those on earth made straight, and men learned what was your pleasure, and were saved by Wisdom.


The Book of Wisdom
Chapter 10
1 2 She preserved the first-formed father of the world when he alone had been created; And she raised him up from his fall,
3 But when the unjust man withdrew from her in his anger, he perished through his fratricidal wrath.
4 When on his account the earth was flooded, Wisdom again saved it, piloting the just man on frailest wood.
5 She, when the nations were sunk in universal wickedness, knew the just man, kept him blameless before God, and preserved him resolute against pity for his child.
6 She delivered the just man from among the wicked who were being destroyed, when he fled as fire descended upon Pentapolis--
7 Where as a testimony to its wickedness, there yet remain a smoking desert, Plants bearing fruit that never ripens, and the tomb of a disbelieving soul, a standing pillar of salt.
8 She, when the just man fled from his brother's anger, guided him in direct ways, Showed him the kingdom of God and gave him knowledge of holy things; She prospered him in his labors and made abundant the fruit of his works,
9 She preserved him from foes, and secured him against ambush, And she gave him the prize for his stern struggle that he might know that devotion to God is mightier than all else.
10 She did not abandon the just man when he was sold, but delivered him from sin.
11 She entered the soul of the LORD'S servant, and withstood fearsome kings with signs and portents;
12 But their enemies she overwhelmed, and cast them up from the bottom of the depths.
20
Therefore the just despoiled the wicked; and they sang, O LORD, your holy name
21
Because Wisdom opened the mouths of the dumb, and gave ready speech to infants.



James 1:5 "If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him."

 

Well of course it's gibberish to you, however for us practicing faithful Christians whatever the Apostle Paul had to say in Scripture we take it as Gospel truth because we believe God inspired all Scripture of the Holy Bible. And who said that Scripture proves anything? I know I haven't said it....but the thing is, is that I believe all Scripture is inspired by God.

But our Lord Savior Jesus Christ converted Paul. Paul, before his conversion was a persecutor of Christians. But after our Lord set him straight, Paul became a devout follower of the Christian faith. He helped spread the Good News of the Gospel during the early days of Christianity. He served our Lord honorably, all the way till his death.

The Bible says he wrote it. So who are we to believe? Well the Bible of course. Timothy did learn a lot from Paul.

Well the wordings were changed but the messages stayed intact, that's the most important thing, in that the messages never changed.

What don't you understand about "All Scripture is inspired by God"?...all means just that..."all"

We Read in Scripture

16 All Scripture is inspired by God and is useful to teach us what is true and to make us realize what is wrong in our lives. It corrects us when we are wrong and teaches us to do what is right. 17 God uses it to prepare and equip his people to do every good work.---2 Timothy 3:16-17 NLT

 

Approximately how old is the universe and how do you answer that question: based upon the Bible, or based upon so called science.

Assuming that we will agree to accept science, then I will have some further questions about why it took GOD billions of years to reveal himself.

 

Let’s assume that god has chosen to reveal himself through the abrahamic religions. These religions emphasize written revelation of “god’s word “. I find this confusing for several reasons.

any god chosen written language poses numerous problems. Anyone not speaking that language is obviously less capable to access the word of god. Anyone geographically removed from the chosen language would face insurmountable impairment (American Indians for example). Further, non native speakers inherently must confront the confusions coming from translation. And finally, this written word of god was revealed to mankind at a time when the preponderance of people could neither read nor write.... and so it is true that god delivered a written revelation to people who would be necessarily incapable of comprehension of the form of revelation

 

Great. Then I can accept and read the Vedas - Hindu Scriptures - and believe them. Fine. They make interesting reading. You should try them. Of course you could try The Ramayana - a good ethical and spiritual work.

No?

 

The fact that Timothy masqueraded as written by Paul means it is Pious Fraud. That you believe God inspired pious fraud is somewhat humorous.

We don't know who wrote Timothy - the only reason it was included in the Bible is because Eusebius and others did not realize that Timothy was pious fraud - though it was written by Paul.

Your claim that the message stayed intact is patent nonsense coming from a complete lack of understanding of what was changed. There were whole books in the Bible that are no longer there. The reason these books were removed was "because" of a message that was not desirable - it was to "remove" a message.

The author of Matt used all of Mark as a source document "except" a few passages that he thought were derogatory to Jesus or the Disiples (artistic license/ Pious Fraud) - again the purpose was to change the message.

English translations of John use the term (word) instead of (Logos). This completely changes the message. "Jesus was the word" is not the same as "Jesus was the Logos". The change is subtle but significant in terms of understanding both Jesus and the message of Jesus - and other passages from Jesus. It is the reason for your misinterpretation of many passages.

Deuteronomy 32:43 changed over the years to the point where its meaning/message has been completely removed.
Many references to the belief in a divine Pantheon with El at the top were removed or altered to hide the original meaning.

We know this because these passages are in older Bibles. http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/DT32BibSac.pdf

So - in the case of passages whose meaning/message has been altered, changed or removed - such as from the Septuagint to the KJV.

Which passage is inspired ? The KJV or the Septuagint ?

Is the epistle of Barnabas inspired - or is it not ?

 

First off the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us the age of the universe, earth, etc. What we have are just theories either way you look at it. And so the bottom line is that the chronological age of the universe/earth cannot be proven. So I wouldn't even want to speculate on how old I think the universe/earth is....I just don't know...only God knows and He didn't tell us.

I don't know...maybe He was shy...lol...I'm just kidding so don't take me seriously. But if that's really the case that He indeed took billions of years to reveal Himself to us humans, only God Himself could answer the question. It would just be speculating if anyone tried to answer the question because it wouldn't be biblical, again like I mentioned earlier, the Bible doesn't explicitly tell us the age of the universe and so of course there is no where in Scripture that God tells us the age of the universe (billions of years) then explains to us why He took so long to reveal Himself to us.

But on the other hand, assuming the universe is relatively young...not more than 8,000 years, and so if that's really the case then God really didn't take long to reveal Himself to us...comparatively speaking, from a mere several thousand of years as oppose to billions of years .

 

So there is no religious conflict on this issue

Since god has not spoken on the subject there is no reason the this should not be a purely scientific dispute. And, as far as I am aware, there is no scientific theory supporting a young earth theories (earth aged less than a million years old)

The exact age cannot be proven..., but young earth theory certainly can be disproven.... so you have a very old planet whose exact age is not certain

Great, so let’s stop acquiescing to religious fantasists who claim that god did tell us this information

I think that there is no credible scientific theory that has the earth as less than a million years old. And you say that god has no position on this issue. And religion itself claims a history less than 100,000 years. Which means that there is an inherently large gap between the time when earth came into existence the time when (according to the Bible) god revealed himself

you have said that god does not address the issue
Therefore I would ask for ANY NON BIBLICAL EVIDENCE
That would support such an assumption

You have asked for questions about religion
I have asked a reasonable question
You have evaded that question by saying (with no evidence) that the world may be 8000 years old..
In which case my question about religion is moot

I would say that religion makes as much sense to me as your suggestion that the world may well be 8000 years old

 

The Bible stories are neither science nor history and were never intended as such. Jews are not stupid.. They know there was no Red Sea parting.. The Bible stories are inspiration.. about redemption. mercy, survival and God's love.

 

All respect, Margot, but I kind of wonder about people who take any religion very seriously.
The Jews of 2000years ago were sacrificing animals at the temple...IMO it is hard to know what is in the Bible that such people might have believed to be true. Many Jews today need separate pots and dishes for various types of foods, etc. Again, it is a little hard for me to dismiss notions of what else is in the Bible that such might take seriously.

Ironically to me.... people often have an inclination to believe fantastical things as somehow a proof of faith. After all, it takes more faith to believe something fantastical... and if you believe something fantastical, then you have the corollary benefit of being part of something of enormous (though possibly illusory) significance.

 

I know many, many Jewish people .. They love their traditions, go to temple on high holy days, love bacon and don't keep Kosher.

 

True but, the Bible does tell us when the Ark made land within a few hundred years. We know from description of the culture and the people and names of cities and kings during the time of Abraham that this was around 1800-2000 BC. Most scholars argue for the later date (1800BC) as one of the Kings mentioned is thought to be Hammurabi who lived around 1800 BC.

Even if we go with the later date (2000BC) this puts the flood at 2300 BC - Noah was 300 years old when Abraham was born.

We know from science that there was no global flood which destroyed all land creatures during this time period - and in fact we can go back many thousands of years into the past and there was no such event.

What we find through this time period is continuous civilizations in China, Australia, Egypt, Africa Europe, Central America and so on. These cultures had art, language and distinct genetic characteristics. If a culture is destroyed - and everyone killed by a flood - and sometime later a different group of people (descending from one family - Noah) later colonized the region the art and culture would be different, the language and the genetic characteristics.

This is not what we find. We find continuous civilization = there was no flood that wiped everyone out.

We would find a record of the flood in ice core samples - some of which date back well over 100,000 years ago ... nothing.
If there was a global flood you should be able to go into your backyard in the midwest and dig a few feet down and find the flood layer - and this would be possible all over the world ... nope .. no flood layer.

Then of course the other details of the flood story are preposterous nonsense. How was Noah able to collect 2 Polar bears from the Arctic and 2 Kangaroo's from Australia .. and 2 Spectacled bears from South America.

Due to the ice melt which started in earnest roughly 12-14000 years ago - after the last ice age - sea level rose roughly 400 feet. As it is today - major cities like to locate on the Ocean. Over the millennia many of these major cities were submerged due to the rising sea level. This is why we have hundreds of flood stories from different cultures in different parts of the world.

Big difference between this and a Global Flood wiping out all land creatures. The Flood story in Genesis is a retelling of older Flood myths such as those found in the Near East - almost verbatim in some cases.

The idea that this story is the literal word of God is no more valid than the Greek Myths describing the Greek Gods.

 

I think we have to differentiate between what the Jews believe now and what they believed 2500 years ago. My own view is that in Babylon the scribes 'designed' a history for their people based on their beliefs. History is important for a nation and the Babylonians could point to their history over the millenia. Their periods of power and their subservience to others. The Jews had little history. We know from ancient history - and Biblical history - that they had little. Israel, 250 years from the Biblical King David and 350 years for Judah. Before that - zilch. They needed to have some origins and so built one to trace themselves back to Adam. Their actual history as written in the Books of Kings and Chronicles -- although often exaggerated - give us an idea of their thoughts regarding Jahwehs dealings with them. As Margot posted they included '. redemption. mercy, survival and God's love' in their stories of Abraham etc. I believe these stories were written as 'history', and the idea became a belief over many decades - strengthened by the priesthood. Jesus the Jewish preacher certainly believed them having been indoctrinated with them from 5 years of age. Christianity and Islam have indoctrinated their followers to the extent they refuse to believe even when shown proven errors and stories which are proven mythical stories.

Many Jews today recognise the truth - again as Margot says. It's reckoned that 50% of Jews no longer practise Judaistic beliefs.

 

As I said I have been living around many Jewish people for several years and see them daily.. For the most part I hold them in high regard.

My first encounter after moving here was to have a woman ask me in front of a group, "Why Jesus abused the Jews?" I was stunned long enough to gather my wits and say, "Jesus was a Jew.. an observant Jew".. Everybody laughed.. She, however, remains a pill... and she is the exception.

I went to a party one high holiday and to my surprise Muslims and Christians had been invited. It was great.

My children come to visit and they too socialize.. I am pleased we have all had this experience.

In Atlanta, they are well organized and well-funded and they do amazing things in the community regardless of religion... The Ben Massel Dental Clinic is but one example and they have been around for decades.

 

Science has not given us definitive/conclusive answers regarding the Great Flood of Noah instead what they have given us are just theories/speculations, guesswork, etc. And so the debate on whether there was/ or wasn't a Great Flood of Noah is still on going, and so nothing has been conclusively proven one way or the other. But of of course you can pick a side that you agree with but just don't tell us that it's factual and not debatable. Here are just two examples of something that is factual, thus it's not debatable....1. the entire sun is hot, 2. all living beings will die eventually.