Question for folks who want to ban civilian use of semi-auto firearms:

All the more reason why the government would not use nukes against American citizens on their own soil. If there was a second civil war would nukes be used? I seriously doubt it.

 

The truth of the matter is it all depends on how a gun is being used, that is to say is the shooter simply dropping a mag and continuing to shoot, or is the shooter removing, stowing the empty mag and then reloading.

In a mass shooting the time difference between 10, 20 and 30 round mags is 2 to 3 seconds for a mag change because the shooter has no intention of reusing the empty mags.

However when hunting say feral hogs, a mag change out takes much longer, why? Because the shooter wants to keep his mags to be reloaded for future use, as such a change out could take 15 seconds or more and that is a enough for the hogs to scatter after being busted out, therefore the best mag for that task is a 20-30 round mag.

But that also introduces another problem, one that all to often exposes the ignorance of the CGA's, the higher the capacity of the magazine, the greater the chances of a feed jam, a jam which can render the firearm useless, if the shooter has not practiced clearing such a jam, in fact just such a jam is what ended the Parkland shooting after Cruz's Smith and Wesson MP-15 semi-automatic suffered a feed jam because he utilized 30 and 40 round magazines. (1)



1. Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School Public Safety Commission Initial Report page 262.

 

The problem with using such weapons is twofold, one is the lingering and drifting radiation they produce and the other is the massive overkill using one causes.

Should there ever be another civil war in the U.S. a majority of the population would not be involved and would be divided into two camps, those who support the U.S. government and those who support the revolutionaries, however that would instantly change should U.S. forces use such weaponry against it's own citizens, causing a majority of those who once supported the government to switch sides and fully support the revolutionaries, due to the massive killing of innocents and the perceived heartlessness of the military and it's Commanders.

 

Being able to park an Ohio Class Nuclear Submarine next to your yacht, that's a bit silly but anything in the way of small arms that the police of military has access to I as a common citizen should have access to as well.

BTW as silly as it might be, I wouldn't be surprised if Joe Citizen would be able to get an Ohio Class Nuclear Submarine if he's a billionaire. If you've got enough money you can get just about anything you want.

You should also take into account that in the situation where the government does try to use the Army to attack its people that many people in the Army would defect and side with the citizens. In the Civil War there were people in the US Army who defected and sided with the Confederates, not the least being Robert E. Lee. You might operate a death machine but if you were ordered to attack the American citizens with it, and you followed that order, you would be up against other people with such death machines who are former coworkers of yours who sided with the citizens.

https://militarymachine.com/military-tanks-for-sale/
https://militarymachine.com/aircraft-for-sale/

You're right that the US government will not be able to use the military to control the people for the reasons you mentioned, and also for the reasons I mentioned, but the 2A is not just about national conflicts, its about local conflicts too.

 

Especially real local conflicts like someone breaking into your home.

 

Yes, I gave you the limited reasons why anyone needs 20 round mags. Some have legit reasons for special radification of pigs.
Then there is the shooting range.
What other reasons is there for Ave Joe to need a 20 round mag?

You asked for a better alternative than having several, many, people all with high capacity firearms all shooting willy nilly at some mass shooting.

The better alternative to lead flying all around a crowed area is to address mental health.
Not having many people flinging lead at whomever they might think is responsible.

How are untrained people flinging lead at each other a good option to you?

 

A major one is self defense.

Well for me it would be a matter of survival, and as for training generally speaking law abiding gun owners are better trained then the average Law Enforcement Officer.

 

20 rounds for self defense?
Explain.

Most people who own guns never had any safety training? Or at least there's no requirement in many places.

Don't all LEOs have weapons training?

I know as a hunter, safety is ingrained into handling of weapon. But many who own firearms aren't for hunting but for self defense. And what training do they get?

 

the Commander in Chief has the nuclear codes since 2016, whatever side He is on is the winning side.

 

The simple fact that the real world does not conform to plan.

Pray tell, what is the precise, exact amount of ammunition that any particular individual will need in a self defense situation?

If such cannot be answered on the part of yourself, if it is not possible for yourself to explain how much ammunition will be needed in such a situation, not what should be needed under the best case circumstances but what will be needed under all circumstances, then it is not the place of yourself to be objecting to individuals feeling the need to carry more than a certain amount.

Addressing mental health will do nothing if those who are in need will not seek out help, or are otherwise ignored by an overburdened system. Therefore it is not a viable alternative, and will not be discussed. Stay on the subject at hand or leave the discussion, rather than introducing off topic nonsense.

It is an alternative to being unarmed and helpless to do anything other than hide, cower, and hope to be rescued before being murdered. Which has been the standard affair in every other mass shooting where retaliation was not a physical possibility. No mass shooting in the united states has ever been ended by the timely intervention of law enforcement.

Perhaps if those who planned to commit a mass shooting knew they could be shot in return, they would be less likely to carry out their plans. They are already seeking locations that announce those inside are not legally armed.

 

A good shot would only need 1 round in self defense.

 

Then law enforcement officers do not qualify as being good shots, as they are issued multiple magazines, all containing far more than one round of ammunition, and well over ten rounds of ammunition each. The fact they are known for emptying all of their magazines just to hit a target even once, demonstrates that ideals are not reality.

Therefore the private ownership and use magazines capable of holding more than ten rounds of ammunition are not only justified, they are absolutely necessary.

 

I guess you're really proving all are bad shots and should not be able to have a firearm period.
All those stray rounds flying through the air.

 

Home invasions, these types of crimes commonly utilize multiple assailants, as such 20 rounds would be the very minimum I would advise someone to be ready to fire.

Example, it was in early 2019 up in Saint Mary Florida where a home was invaded by four armed shooters, after pounding on the door and yelling Sheriff's Office, they kicked in the door and began firing, which by the way is not a Law Enforcement standard operating procedure.

Two men in the home returned fire and according to LE at least 30 rounds where fired at the perps, three where hit and injured, one was killed.

Just using basic math it becomes quite clear, when their are multiple invaders, that requires having the ability to fire multiple shots at each and everyone of them, this is not like hunting where the target cannot shoot back, this is in your home live fire combat.

Lets say there are just 4 perps, they hit the home and begin shooting, the homeowner arms up and returns fire, hopefully this will force the perps to flee, but if they cannot or are so effed up on something they instead choose to take cover and fight, with four invaders that only leaves the good guy with five rounds for each, that's not a lot of ammo when it's all hitting the fan.

While there are no hard numbers to be found one way or the other, I would strongly disagree with that statement, my experience over the last few decades has been when a law abiding person purchases a firearm for self defense, they often ask for, or are offered and take training, which ranges from basic gun safety to self defense tactics, plus many of these courses are offered by law enforcement for a very low fee and are taught by the same people who train LEO's in safe gun handling, however some departments here in Florida take it much further offering courses that are well beyond the state requirements for a LEO to qualify to be able to carry a gun, and they offer the courses for a very reasonable fee, actually considerably less than what I charge.

Here's an example of such a course.

https://www.brevardsheriff.com/home/self-defense-through-tactical-shooting-decision-making/

Yes but it is minimal to say the least, training is expensive and many departments do not have the funding to provide intensive training for other than a few select officers who work operations like SWAT.

Posted below is what the State of Florida requires for a LEO to qualify to carry a gun.

(13) Use-of-Force training. An officer shall, as a part of the officer’s 40-hour continuing education or training every four years, be required to complete the following Use-of-Force training.

(a) Use-of-Force training shall include the following topics of instruction:

1. Scenario-based Firearms Training.

2. Physiological Response Dynamics Training.

3. Less-lethal force options available within the agency.

4. Agency policies on Use-of-Force training.

5. Legal aspects regarding Use-of-Force training

Now that is only the use of force part of the ten hour per year training, in addition to that they must also complete:

Statutory mandated continuing training. The following training shall be included as a part of the officer’s continuing training:

(a) Domestic Violence Training for Law Enforcement Officers pursuant to section 943.1701, F.S. Certified law enforcement officers who elect to instruct domestic violence training may substitute completion or instruction of domestic violence training to satisfy the officer’s continuing training requirement.

(b) Human Diversity Training pursuant to section 943.1716, F.S. Certified officers who elect to instruct human diversity modules pursuant to section 943.1716, F.S., may substitute completion or instruction of human diversity training to satisfy the officer’s continuing training requirement.

(c) Juvenile Sexual Offender Investigation Training for Law Enforcement Officers pursuant to section 943.17295, F.S. Certified law enforcement officers who elect to instruct the Juvenile Sexual Offender Investigation training may substitute completion or instruction of this training to satisfy the officer’s continuing training requirement.

(d) Discriminatory Profiling and Professional Traffic Stops pursuant to section 943.1758, F.S. Certified law enforcement officers who elect to instruct Discriminatory Profiling and Professional Traffic Stops may substitute completion or instruction of this training to satisfy the officer’s continuing training requirement. Completion or instruction of this training shall satisfy all or a portion of an officer’s continuing training requirement for human diversity training.

As such it becomes quite obvious the LEO firearm training is only given a few minutes per year of continuing education and I personally believe this lack of real range time that many law abiding gun owners have taken on their own time and dollar explains why when LEO's get into a gun fight they fire hundreds of rounds hitting everything other than their target, many times killing a few innocents in the process.

"A pair of armed robbers and two others, including the driver of a hijacked UPS truck, were killed in an exchange of gunfire with South Florida police officers after the suspects led authorities on a high-speed chase."

Note the number of random bullet holes in the UPS truck, that's some piss poor shooting and also notice how the LEO's use citizens vehicles as cover placing the people in those cars in imminent danger of being shot and killed. That's some seriously deficient training, while an officer can use their own patrol car, they should never put innocents into the line of fire by using them as cover.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/06/785561122/4-dead-after-armed-robbers-hijack-ups-truck

This is what a LEO is required to pass at the range every other year to be allowed carry a gun, forty rounds with an eighty percent score.

Well as I stated based on my experience as a NRA certified instructor, most first time self defense gun buyers seek out training, which many times is offered by the FFL they buy their gun from and or they seek out someone like myself or get training from their local Sheriff's Department, which in Florida I believe is offered by 48 of the 67 Sheriff's in Florida.

And if the gun owner wish's to carry their gun concealed they are required to take an approved NRA or equivalent gun safety/live fire training course before their license shall be issued.

 

I know, but I was asked a number that would be needed.
Obviously there's 1000s of scenarios. So no one can give a number.

So I gave the 1 number that would work if the 1 shot would be a kill.

I am not in the camp of firearms for self defense. But then, I live in a part of country where it's not a concern.
And because of the needing to find or unholster a firearm, often times it will not be an option.

I can't imagine living in a place where one needs a firearm basically under one's pillow to feel safe.
I'd move.

 

we want to make them harder to get, not ban them... like machine guns.... do you agree with machine gun restrictions?

 

Totally false, you really have no clue as to what happens when a person is pushed into such a situation, nor do you understand the stopping power of firearms or the lack of it when it comes to self defense.

It time for you to do some research and get a clue versus tossing out false information.

 

I have a firearm ready to use for the same reason I have a couple of ten pound fire extinguishers in my kitchen, I hope I will never need any of them, but I accept the reality if I ever do their are no alternatives for me.

In an urban area the LE response time for a Code Three dispatch is between three to twelve minutes, a home invasion might last a few minutes and then I am dead and unable to protect my family, out here a Code Three dispatch is commonly ten to fifteen minutes and that would have the same result for me and my wife.

I hope I never have the need a gun for self defense, but the reality of life is if I need one I have no alternative way to survive, a call to nine one one, at best will get a report filed and our next of kin will be notified, I personally will not accept that alternatve.

 

Such cannot be agreed with, as she restrictions have done nothing to make the public any safer than when fully-automatic firearms could be purchased in the mail. The restrictions were not implemented in the name of public safety, but rather revenue generation. The fact they are intended for revenue generation is the only reason they were not ruled unconstitutional to begin with.

The latest mass shooting was committed by an individual who had legally purchased a sound suppressor, which involves the same process and paperwork as a fully-automatic firearm. Demonstrating that the restrictions on such are not what is serving to safeguard the public. Personal restraint and only personal restraint is the only thing serving to stop the legal owners of fully-automatic firearms from engaging in mass murder.

 

Factually incorrect.

Meaningless and irrelevant.

 

Having worked in law enforcement I also have uncanny sense of being able to see two legged predators for what they are, and personally I think that is why I have never been successfully robbed, I have come close to it once, but was not successful, most criminals are animals, nothing less and unless they are really effed up on something can read the body language of a proposed target, and while I am very peaceful, I have the ability give someone a look that they could become dead.