OK. But I am saying genetic factors HAVE been shown to have effect a persons chemical and biological makeup right? I don't think you can say complex social behavior is NOT mediated by genes. I think you can say it has NOT been shown that complex social behavior is mediated by genes, and I think there is a definitive difference in the two perspectives. I also think you can not completely rule out the possibility of such at this point in time considering our knowledge of human genetics. I do think it is legitimate to theorize that genetics could play a role as a variable in impulse and impulse control though and if I am not mistaken numerous studies have been done on this as far as drug addiction is concerned. I think we have found enough evidence in other areas of genetic effect where we can absolutely not rule out the possibility of it being a variable in rape tendency. In fact I think the statistics combined with what we do know about genetics is enough to realistically consider such a hypothesis and makes such a theory absolutely worth further research. There is no CURRENT scientific evidence that connects the two, but I think it is perfectly logical to be open to (but not necessarily believe) the idea that it very well could. Any claims that it does have not been proven, I get that. But many signs point to the very real possibility that genetics do play a factor (which is not evidence but requires inquiry). On the second point. Ok if we do agree that there is a sexual component to rape, then we can agree that the sexual aspects of our psyche are involved right? I don't think it matters that desire to dominate and humiliate are also part of it. In fact the desire to dominate and humiliate is one of the largest categories of fetish in our society. So here we have a group of people who actually do "get off" on either dominating and humiliating or being dominated and humiliated. If these two things are connected for people who are not committing rape and exist within people who are not committing rape then what are the differences between those who do it as a fetish and those that actually commit rape? Obviously there has to be a difference. I don't know what that difference is exactly. But again you are dealing with the sexual subconscious and how it expresses itself. The desire to dominate and humiliate seems to actually be fairly normal. On the third. I do not believe it is a conscious "let's go out and get a white woman" I think it is very subconscious and very similar to what makes many African American men attracted to white females in SOME cases (or perhaps many cases but obviously not all as there is a majority of interracial relationships of "white" men with "black" women and "black" men with "white" women that are all perfectly normal and healthy). Are you going to tell me that is simply a matter of a status symbol or something? And I know this exists within the African American community. At least any African American woman I have ever had a romantic relationship with has discussed this with me and I have to believe there is something to this. I think there are very real and very deep subconscious emotions at play and I think these have been developed socially. I certainly do not believe it is simply a matter of there just being more white women out there. On this logistics can not be the only factor, I find that almost impossible to believe. Again, it's not for racist reasons at all, it's because of social and cultural reasons and the subconscious mind at work. I don't know why that would be so difficult to believe. This is not a blame game or anything, nor am I insinuating there is a conspiracy where a bunch of "black" men get together and plan to get themselves a "white" woman to impregnate, that would just be absurd. So would a "black" man premeditating a rape against a "white" woman because of slavery, or bigotry, or discrimination. What is not so absurd is considering the perception of some "black" men and how they inherently and subconsciously view "white" women. And then how that perception may lead to a subconscious decision to target the "white" woman for an act of rage and impulse with probable intentions of humiliation and definite intentions of domination. Does that sound ridiculous at all to you? If so I am missing a big chunk of information that I really don't know about.
Well see, it's not quite the same for men is it? Of course I experience dopamine, but it's not exactly like I have to stay with a partner that "learned" how to please me. Pretty much any partner CAN please me. It's not quite the same for women, as you say. But yea, I don't really think it's "rape" that was part of that development, but I do think it is the aggressive primal tendency that gets confused somewhere along the way from initiation to expression to action. We are definitely discussing the Limbic System and archipallium and aggression and sexual drive and other emotions all are involved here. The way our brains developed was in layers basically. We have our primal brain, and what's often called the "reptilian" brain and on top of that we have other lobes maturing finally into our frontal lobe, which is the most evolved and modern area of our brain. So evolution is not exactly clean. Our brains are SO complex. But basically modern day humans route all the signals deriving from deeper parts of our brain to more modern parts of our brain and that translates these signals in to what we know and can describe as modern human behavior. Emotions, sex, rape these are not aspects of our more modern and evolved brain. Now we have processed them through this new areas and we perceive them to be what the different areas of our brain combined piece together. Just out of curiosity, are there other theories about why women developed complex orgasms? Are there other possibilities as to why? Based on what I know about modern sex, I really really don't see a disconnect with aggression, dominance, power and even humiliation. Again, I will bring up fetishistic tendency and the fact that a couple can experience all of those things and still have a trusting and cooperative relationship. I don't think the two are exclusive.
I understand what you're trying to convey. It's just that I disagree with it. I want to try to get you to reconsider the "rape being a perversion of a basic instinct" and instead see it just as a violent force of expression having nothing to do with a basic instinct to procreate at all. 1. Among rape victims are prepubescent children, adult men, and very old people. These demos obviously can't procreate. 2. Some rapes are committed using objects and not sexual organs. 3. Many rape victims end up dead. 4. The psychological trauma it causes is not conducive to raising healthy offspring, thus counterproductive. 5. Most rapes are carefully planned by the rapist. A rapist will rape again and again, usually in the same area of town and in the same way. Most perps are predators. 6. In 43% of all reported cases, more than one assailant was involved. 7. Many studies have found that the motives for rape often include hostility against women in general, the desire to exert power and control, the desire to humiliate and degrade, and in some cases, the desire to inflict pain. The urges you are talking about seem to be 100% gratification-based. I'll be surprised if you come back and say you really do want to have a bunch of children by many women.
1, Ok. Just because I am saying that this is initiated deep down in our sex drive (which is there for procreation) does not mean I am saying that "rapists" are looking TO procreate. That is kind of what I am speaking about when I say these base instincts get "perverted". Of course they are not looking to procreate. But where is this impulse originating? 2. Again you are confusing the idea here. This has nothing to do with physical procreation but is connected to the same region that determines sexual attraction and procreation. For most men these are very much the same I think. 3. I don't see how them ending up dead invalidates my argument at all? Because again you are confusing the conscious thought of procreation with the subconscious impulse and instinct. 4. Once again, rapists are in no way generally at least, trying to raise offspring. Of course it is counterproductive. See #1-3 please. 5. Ah, this I do not know to be fact, that MOST rapes are carefully planned? That A rapist (meaning all?) will rape again and again. I would suggest that ALL men are predators. I would go further to suggest all human beings are predators (even vegans!) The question then becomes who is the prey and what will they do once they have it? 6. Ok while group rape is possible, and I will assume that statistic is true, that is still less than 50%. Again though, how does this prove that rape is not effected by the primal urge or how does it invalidate my argument? You are once again misunderstanding the URGE to procreate with the conscious thought to procreate and these are vastly different things. 7. Yes, Hostility towards women, desire to exert power and control and desire to humliate and degrade are actually very COMMON and very connected to sexual nature. I would say, by this discussion, you would be horribly freaked out if you got inside the mind of most men or at least the subconscious desires. All of those things you mentioned are actually VERY VERY normal, so I don't see how you are making them the sole emotions of "rapists" and not just a large portion of people in general. Or how that invalidates what I have been saying. 8. Ok, gratification is connected to procreation OBVIOUSLY as we have this thing called dopamine right? Not condescending here but do you know how the human brain works? I am actually asking. Do you know about our pleasure centers? 9. Why in the world would that surprise you? In fact, that is the thing my girlfriend probably does dislike about me the most! I want MANY women and I want them to have my babies. I do want to both consciously and subconsciously "spread my seed". In fact, I probably am more open about this than most men and I probably have actually brought that urge up throughout my entire life. I also found it very interesting that a majority of men really don't understand me when i say "urge to spread your seed". I have asked other men all over the world, "oh, you dont have those thoughts? You dont kind of want to you know, have a lot of babies out there?" And definitively many men don't know what I am talking about and don't believe they have that urge. I always found that interesting personally. Most MEN consciously don't think they want to procreate in such a fashion! From what I know. So I think you have me pegged very wrong. And again you do not understand what I am trying to convey if you continue to use these types of arguments against me because they do not invalidate what I am saying, It is NOT a conscious thing. The urge to procreate is not separate from sexual drive, desire to dominate or the EGO. In fact what is the urge to spread ones seed in procreation if not egotistical? It is my ego that wants to get my DNA out there partially. I have PRIMAL urges. These primal urges, while connected to the base instinct of procreation, when filtered through our complex brains, do not always express themselves in actual procreation! This is why a tremendous number of people have casual and premarital sex and this is why many people use birth control or condoms. Yes, they are choosing to access their pleasure center and since the pleasure center is connected with PROCREATION, they have to wear a condom....... If you don't exactly understand now, I will try harder. But by no means do I think you understand yet. Which is fine. You don't have to agree. All though I kind of do care if you at least understand. Well, I know you disagree now, and perhaps this is because I have an intimate connection to my male emotions and thoughts and urges. I honestly do believe in part, this all will be slightly difficult for many women to actually understand. In the same way that I could never understand a complex female orgasm or giving birth. You see? Hrm how about this. The reason we have the ability for self gratification, I mean men at least is so that we have sex. Without that self gratification the male of our species would not be so inclined to have sex because we would NOT necessarily want to just have children. It developed to urge us to procreate.
