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Rights - god given? inalienable? self-evident? natural? WRONG

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by Mike12, Jul 24, 2017.

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  1. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    do not conflate natural laws with natural rights. You cannot break law of gravity, you can break any right because they are simply not governed by any natural laws.
     
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #101
  2. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Natural Rights and Natural Law are inseparable.
     
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #102
  3. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    i just showed you natural laws cannot be broken, natural rights can. A right is nothing more than something we agree to, not governed bay any divine being or natural law. This is a FACT.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #103
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  4. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    You're conflating Physical Law with Natural Law. Natural Law can be broken....Natural Law is broken every time a murderer murders, every time a rapist rapes, every time a thief steals.
     
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #104
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  5. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If Natural Law did not exist, no one would ever be angered, outraged or affronted by anything. There would be no activists. Slavery and Jim Crow laws would still be in effect. No wars would ever be fought. MADD would have never materialized. Bernie Madoff and Enron wouldn't have raised an eyebrow. The 9/11 attacks wouldn't have been worth reporting. Gays would still be in the closet. No one would ever aspire to get their children out of the ghettos.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #105
  6. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    You are confusing this "internal sense of right and wrong" which is the development of frontal lobes which gave us the ability to empathize, with some god bestowing rights on it's creation.
     
    rahl, Jul 25, 2017
    #106
  7. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    There is no such thing as natural law.
     
    rahl, Jul 25, 2017
    #107
  8. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Good point I stand corrected.
     
    RiaRaeb, Jul 25, 2017
    #108
  9. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    nonsense. Natural law is simply a philosophical concept, and entirely man made.
     
    rahl, Jul 25, 2017
    #109
  10. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    there are no natural laws. If you make an experiment and have 100 people live in a secluded Island you will observe that there are no natural laws governing their behavior in ways that agree with 'natural rights'. In the absence of a society telling them what is a right (a social construct), they would be killing, raping, forcibly taking what they want. They would be no different than a silverback gorilla killing rivals to get females to procreate. Society has agreed to rights and laws after the human experiment for hundreds of years, society as a whole has agreed that it's better for society if we deem x, y, z as rights and ensure their protection This just shows that rights are subject to change and nothing more that social constructs. If there is a natural law, it is the genetic trait to survive and procreate and if it involves killing, raping, so be it. Only a society has fabricated rights and laws to keep man in check.
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #110
  11. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Again, I can prove the existence of Natural Rights and Natural Law much better in person, but you'll have to post your pertinents so I can show up on your doorstep with my team of relocation specialists and moving van.
     
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #111
  12. RiaRaeb

    RiaRaeb Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Absolutely, history is littered with examples of civilised people behaving in barbaric ways the moment society breaks down.
     
    RiaRaeb, Jul 25, 2017
    #112
  13. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    What keeps you from raping, robbing and murdering your family members and neighbors?
     
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #113
  14. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    of course, because natural rights never hold unless society agrees to them and seeks to protect them. I don't know why some here can't simply agree that rights are nothing more than social constructs that we have agreed need protection. Why isn't this sufficient? I'll tell you why, because then rights are subject to change and some here want to end the argument with 'they can't change, they are god given or bound by natural law' but it's a fabricated meaning in order to make their arguments easier. Someone can stand in front of a crowd and simply state 'rights are god given, end of debate' and avoid an intellectual debate.
     
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #114
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  15. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    If they don't exist, what's to protect?
     
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #115
  16. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    since birth i have lived in a society that has taught me what is moral, what laws to obey and what rights to respect. If you or me were born in a society where killing was ok (just as owning slaves was ok in the past), we would be killing others without even questing it. Many slave owners never thought it was bad to own slaves, society blessed it. People once had the right to own slaves but it changed, as rights are subject to change. I would love to send you back to prehistoric times where hunters and gathers roamed the earth in search for food, see what natural rights existed back then.
     
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #116
  17. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Society had to teach you not to rape, rob and murder your family members and neighbors? were you raised by psychopathic predators?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #117
  18. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    http://politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/hobbes-or-locke.509189/

     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #118
  19. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    yes, it has also taught you.
     
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #119
  20. webrockk

    webrockk Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    How so...by holding a threat of being locked in a cage over my head? If there are no Natural Rights and Natural Laws, what would have ever inspired humans to catch and remove rapists, robbers and murderers from civilized society? For that matter, were there not some inherent, universal sense of right and wrong, good and evil, how would 'civilized society' have ever materialized?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    webrockk, Jul 25, 2017
    #120
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  21. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    How can something natural be taken away?
    I am aware of how it works, but you don't seem to be. Or you are contradictory.
     
    dairyair, Jul 25, 2017
    #121
  22. Mike12

    Mike12 Well-Known Member

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    absolutely, if murder, theft and rape were legal, it would occur with more frequency, you would observe a group of men just simply taking a woman they want or simply take a good they want from others. It would be a world of people taking arms and anarchy. What you fail to recognize is that human nature is not just benign, you should read the book the selfish gene. All we are wired to do is survive and procreate. Right now, society has agreed that the best way to assure our survival is to fabricate rights and create laws and ways to enforce them. Wait and see what happens 100-200-300 years from now when resources are depleted and humans result to barbarism to survive, no natural law will prevent it. if 200 years from now we are fighting for resources to survive, I WILL NOT HESITATE TO PUT A BULLET BETWEEN YOUR EYES AND YOU WOULDN'T HESITATE EITHER, if our survival depends on it.

    some societies are civilized, some aren't... take a walk in ISIS infested territory to see what their view of society is, what natural laws are governing ISIS? are then subhumans?
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    Mike12, Jul 25, 2017
    #122
  23. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Well, then most of Asia has no compassion or empathy. For they don't have your god. But I think that is BS, I bet they have more compassion and empathy than you.
     
    dairyair, Jul 25, 2017
    #123
  24. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    no, you cant, as they don't exist.
     
    rahl, Jul 25, 2017
    #124
  25. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    frontal lobes, which allow us to empathize
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2017
    rahl, Jul 25, 2017
    #125
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