Scots vote to remain in European Union while UK leaves! #IndyRef2 ?

What I said describes the new situation. It was the vote of the Scots to remain in the European Union while the UK as a whole voted to leave the EU which changes the old situation to the new situation as I am describing it.

Correct.

Not really.

The UK is the the most pervasive threat to an independent Scotland, though that threat is not merely "military" in nature, but comprises a number of other threats - policing threats, legal threats, propaganda threats, economic threats and so on.

However, the UK represents a lesser, not "the main", military threat to Scotland than say Russia. There is no chance that the UK would drop its nuclear weapons on Scotland. Indeed the UK's military weapons are based in Scotland.

Under the circumstances of a rogue government of a member of NATO posing a threat to the democracy of any part of that member country then NATO has a duty to defend the people of the member country from the rogue government.

Scotland doesn't have to already be an independent member of NATO to be entitled to defence of the democracy of the people of Scotland from NATO. That's something that NATO is responsible for already because the people of Scotland are some of the people of the United Kingdom and therefore we are some of the people of NATO.

The people of NATO are entitled to protection from NATO, wherever we happen to live under NATO protection.

Now you are just being silly and insulting.

The people of Scotland are loyal members of NATO and ought to be understood, respected and protected as such by NATO.

The purpose of NATO is to defend democracy for all of the people of NATO, including the people of Scotland and if we want to have another independence vote, then that should be supported (and if necessary enforced) by NATO.

 

A recent poll now shows that 59%, not merely "45 percent" of Scots want independence from the United Kingdom.

The Scotsman: Poll puts support for Scottish independence at 59%

Sunday 26 June 2016

NEARLY six out of 10 Scots say they’d vote Yes in a second independence referendum.

In a clear reflection of the growing backlash north of the Border to Thursday’s Brexit result, a ScotPulse online survey of 1,600 Scottish adults on Friday (24 June) showed that 59% of Scots now back leaving the UK.​

45% for Scottish independence was the result of the referendum in September 2014, when many Scots were misled to believe that voting "No" to stay in the UK would be the only way to remain in the European Union - now disproved.

Not spelled as "Scotts" but as "Scots", with 1 "t".

Scottish is with 2 "tt"s.

Sorry about that.

The E.U. respects the political independence of its member countries with independent governments with responsibilities for all matters not agreed by Treaty to be the responsibility of the EU.

Whereas the UK restricts the Scottish government's independence in many matters without the agreement of the Scottish government.

By no means all Scots who are for Scottish independence or for remaining in the European Union would wish for another head of state for Scotland, other than Queen Elizabeth, the UK head of state, but certainly for many Scottish democrats and republicans, the imposed UK monarchy and UK monarch is another grievance we have with the UK.

Well neither Iceland nor Norway - two of Scotland's northern neighbours - are in the EU. Whilst both countries are geographically bigger than Scotland, the population of Norway is about the same as Scotland and the population of Iceland is a lot smaller.

So being small doesn't mean "too small" to stand outside of the EU.

Certainly, Scots choice is to remain in the EU and our choice ought to be respected.

Sorry to be pedantic about this but it is not "England" which is denying Scotland our independence but the United Kingdom.

Actually, much more like how the Republic of Ireland and now in this referendum Northern Ireland too have both decided to remain in the European Union.

 

EDIT

I meant to type "Indeed the UK's nuclear weapons are based in Scotland."

The UK's nukes are based at Faslane, Scotland.

Submarine base - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMNB_Clyde
Nuke store - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RNAD_Coulport

 

Yeah with the North Sea oil drying up, they really can't make it on their own economically without pulling a Greece and being on someone's dole. So if not the UK, than the EU.

 

I think under the circumstances, you've given the best contradictory response to my comments that is possible.

 

The Scottish economy has tanked £15 billion per year in deficit & growing over 9% GDP deficit. As an Independent Country they will rank along the likes of the PIGS. Portugal, Italy, Greece & Spain.

The likelyhood is that the EU won't want to take on another basket case economy after Brexit ( the 2nd largest contributor) to their budget leaves.

I have lived half my life in Scotland, I'm a University educated person earning more than £70K per year. But I am sick & fed up with this Independence nonsense that Scotland can survive outside the UK. I will vote for the UNION as I have always done, but if Scotland does leave the UK I will certainly leave & move back to England & good luck to them. I'm sure they will be happy with their poverty, EU regulations & their own sense of Nationalism.

 

Hark, the Herald Angel speaks!

By Associated Press June 29

Former U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice says she is concerned that a European Union that will now have to struggle with a British departure from the bloc will become “much more inward-looking and less engaged with the world.”

She says that would leave the EU less capable of tackling challenges including a resurgent Russia and instability in the Middle East.

Rice, who served as secretary of state under President George W. Bush, spoke on Wednesday in Warsaw at a debate on democracy alongside the former Polish foreign minister, Radek Sikorski.

She said she believes a union without Britain will result in an EU that looks less to Washington in its foreign policy.
She said, “I see NATO now as unfortunately the only truly Atlanticist institution, but I don’t think it will have an effect on NATO. Where it could have an effect is on Europe’s ability to focus on some of the issues that are so central to American foreign policy.”

As an example of issues where the U.S. sees Europe as its partner are the “finishing the democratic project” in Central Europe, “the challenges of Moscow and the Kremlin,” and instability in the Middle East.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/the-latest-belgian-pm-says-eu-needs-to-connect-to-citizens/2016/06/29/74fd86d4-3dcb-11e6-9e16-4cf01a41decb_story.html

​

US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice (R) speaks with Polish Foreign Minister Radoslaw Sikorski as US President George W. Bush and Polish Prime Minister Donald Tusk speak to the press during a bilateral meeting in the Oval Office of the White House in Washington, DC, on March 10, 2008. AFP PHOTO/Jim WATSON

 

The Scotsman: Spanish prime minister says Spain will block Scots EU deal


Spain has long been seen as a stumbling block for an independent Scotland's EU membership. Picture: AP

THE Spanish prime minister Mariano Rajoy has said Scotland cannot negotiate its own deal for EU membership.

Mr Rajoy dealt a devastating blow to Nicola Sturgeon’s attempts to protect Scotland’s position in the bloc when he said if the “United Kingdom leaves”, then “Scotland also leaves”.​

REMAIN can pour buckets of cold water over UK and Spanish royalists who are resisting Scottish and Catalan independence in the European Union by the Scottish and Catalan parliaments banning the UK and Spanish royal families from Scotland and Catalonia, respectively.

Such a "royals-free" de facto independence will so frustrate British and Spanish imperialists that they will willingly volte-face on our EU membership, simply to bring rebel territories to heel, gain some measure of our respect, via the EU.

After all, it is the fault of the United Kingdom and in particular the fault of the head of state of the United Kingdom, Queen Elizabeth, if the officials of her kingdom are in any way obstructive of Scotland remaining in the European Union.

In the light of this, the Scottish parliament could withdraw the invitation to Queen Elizabeth to open the next session of the parliament at Holyrood on 2nd July - withdraw the invitation and impose a ban on Queen Elizabeth and her family from attending Holyrood - the parliament and the palace, banned from Edinburgh and banned from the entire territory of Scotland.

Additionally, the Scottish government could call on NATO forces to help to defend democracy in Scotland by helping to enforce the ban of the UK royals from Scotland.

Sturgeon singing "God Save the Queen" is distinctly unhelpful now.

It is Scotland's place in the European Union which it is the duty of any First Minister to save and that means sacrificing the monarchy and kingdom, for a Scottish republic and maybe a Catalan republic too, both within the European Union.

 

SNP has lost the plot, but then it never really had it in the first place.

The EU doesn't want Scotland on the same terms as the UK, because Scotland is not the UK. It doesn't bring as much to the table.
If Scotland wants to join the EU the UK should not seek to interfere with that. and indeed be supportive of it. Obviously the SNP has a very fanciful idea of Scotland's value to the world which is not shared by the rest of the world. Scots would be well advised to seek better leadership.

 

^^^^ Absolutely correct

The EU doesn't want Scotland, it will just further drain their budget. The Scottish economy is in free fall £15 billion a year in deficit & growing.


This is why all the EU big wigs are rebuffing the SNP at every turn.

The SNP are now in desperate straights, they haven't & won't "demand" a 2nd IndyRef. When I say "demand" I really mean "ask for permission", as they know full well it is not in their power to call an Independence referendum, that power lies with WestMinster. And also they don't really want one, as they know they will loose again & that will put pay to Independent Scotland for another 100 years...

Of course the SNP wil continue to "politic" over this issue as these types have one policy only & that is to cause mischief. They are a total disaster in domestic politics. Education in Scotland is a joke & the SNP is solely responsible. It is only by playing the rascist Nationalist card that they hold any sway over the Scottish people & that card is slipping as can be seen by the massive gains of the Conservative in this years elections.


SNP, BNP just two faces of the same fascist politics agenda!

 

Ok so if Scotland wants to leave the U.K. to remain in the EU it would want NATA to defend it from us English. Hmmmmm. But Scotland (Sturgeon) quoted in Dec 16 quotes if it left the UK it would not have a hard border! Well that isn't up to Scotland. If England wants a Hard border then that's up to England. This will probably happen as England would see Scotland as a back door for migrants to enter the future UK. Then Scotland needs to think about a military. The UK would not defend Scotland so it would need to start from scratch from day 1 of independe an military force. It would be left open and a soft target. Then there is answer to the main question. Scotland wants NATA to defend it from the English! OK Scotland us English will send some English military to help defend it from us, as the UK is a dominate force in NATO, or they could demand that the entire planet help defend it lol!. I'm sorry Scotland but your in la la land! Get out the clouds! Go if you want to and good luck....

 

This post is idiotic.

Firstly if Scotland were to vote to become an Independent country then it would have full sovereignty. The Rest of the UK would not attempt to use military force against it given it would have allowed the referendum in the first place. This is not Spain where the Government appears to forbid Catalunya from seceding. Ipso Facto demanding a Nato protection force is just absurd. Peter Dow should grow up if he wants to be taken seriously.

And independent Scotland could certainly apply to join the EU and would probably be accepted however they would insist that it joined the Euro. There would be no fisheries exemption. These are minor issues when compared to the major one which is that 80% of the exports of Scotland goes to the rest of the UK and those would then be subject to tarriffs. Scotland would then also lose 30,000 civil servants whose jobs would be immediately reassigned to other parts of the UK with high unemployment.

Scottish nationalists tend to have a romanticised view and believe that all decisions would go in their favour. The sea borders were res established to conform to international norms (ie that the borders are drawn to the nearest point of land ) that will stay out to 10 Miles

The North Sea has been divided by treaty and those areas that have been, by treaty, awarded to the UK will stay with the UK unless the UK agrees to a redivision. They do not belong to Scotland.I have no doubt that the UK would cede international claims to Scotland as part of a negotiated settlement but those areas of North Sea Oil fields that are closer to Berwick on Tweed than any part of Scotland would be part of the UK . The pre 1997 border would not apply.

I see it as a distinct possibility (not a probability but a possibility) that Scotland will become an independent country within the next decade.If it does I am in no doubt whatsoever that the two governments will work extremely closely , as closely as Sweden and Norway do, for instance.

Personally I think the UK should become a Federation of Countries with The Federal government responsible for Trade,Defence, Monetary policy,large scale transport infrastructure, Supreme court of appeal,immigration and Foreign policy but with the constituent countries responsible for all other matters. If that was the case I could see the Republic of Ireland becoming first an 'observer' then 'associate' member and in a number of decades a full member of such a Union.

I am a descendent of one of the last Scottish Prime Ministers from when Scotland was an independent country and of Jacobite rebels and I support Scotland's right to a distinct Identity, Laws and customs however I believe Scotland is better off as an Autonomous part of a United Federation rather than as an Independent country.