Seriously….. What would it take for a GOD to prove itself? (Part 2)

Bippy123 gave me a link to an amazing video in another discussion. I finally got a chance to view it today............. I was amazed....... I am pretty sure that you know ninety five percent of this already....... but I didn't.........… Big Bang Theory will never be the same again...… now I actually have a much better understanding of what Dr. Sheldon Cooper and the gang are talking out when they refer to Schrodinger's Cat!

Quantum physics debunks materialism

http://youtu.be/4C5pq7W5yRM

 

Good question! An Olympic athlete from Canada spent a great deal of time working with very poor people in Ethiopia. She came back in a state of awe........... at how happy the people there really were...… especially in comparison to the level of depression, shame, guilt, jealousy and downright despair that seems so common here in the world's wealthiest nations.

 

If....... the evidence that seems to imply that time branches...… and is not confined to being one straight line ...… actually implies moments in the past being replicated and then an entirely new time line spun off........... then this would imply that we humans have astonishing power to alter the future by our decisions?!

I used a fair bit of artistic license in creating this thread..... I already knew that the Dr. Chet Snow timeline diverged from our own around 1988 or 1989.......... but I wanted to give some people who are overly angry over politics to have a little more humility....... but...… the basic idea is an important one that has pretty serious implications.

http://www.politicalforum.com/humor...2000-election-but-negates-global-dimming.html

In alternate time line Mr. Gore wins the 2000 election but negates Global Dimming....



I personally loved the film "An Inconvenient Truth." I have watched it four or five times at least. It played a huge role in my deciding to join a political party that takes climate change very seriously.

...

I do have one criticism for his film though..... the diplomacy quotient was extremely low and America is more divided than ever partly because of the flavor of his film.

............…

post #4.....The ash, soot and dust that goes into the atmosphere from all those smoke stacks...… over the short term...… tends to mask/decrease a general global warming trend!!!!!!!!!

.....Could a win by Mr. Al Gore in 2000 have led to America being 15% submerged under the oceans by January 1, 2013?

Time does look like a menorah....... or tree with branches and roots... … and is not confined to being a straight line...…

In theory....... Mr. Gore's policy could have ended up greatly decreasing the Global Dimming Effect..... at the same time that it might do little to reduce a general Global Warming trend.... which could lead to rapid warming.....and of course increased cracking and sliding on the land based Greenland Ice Pack.... the world's glaciers and the outer regions of Antarctica......

Prime Minister Stephen Harper and President Bush may have deliberately allowed somewhat bad policy to continue...… because they probably had been told that the factors that increase Global Dimming..... do tend to mask Global Warming.... .which could mean within five decades we may know that that they may have had a basically good idea..... in comparison to worst possible alternative.....??????!!!

http://www.baproducts.com/chetmap.htm

Dr Chet Snow's Earth Change Map

(In 1980 Helen Wambach Ph. D. began a study on over 700 volunteers who were found to be able to view..... what looked like the future to them...… as they were in a hypnotic trance. Dr. Chet Snow completed her research after her death and the map will surprise you. What they visualized is certainly not what I would have guessed. Many of their predictions did come true.)

 

Some will stub there toe and cry and shed tears due to the pain. Walk with a limp for days or weeks.
Others will go, dang, that hurt, and continue on as if it never happened.

 

Or those others might even respond with something like "hmmm .. that was interesting... I wonder what caused that input."

 

I see reality as subjective because if a person with nerve damage stubs their toe on the table they will feel no pain. Just because most would have a similar responce to stubbing a toe does not make the responce universal to all humanity... thus the subjectivity. A person with a calcium deficiency may break the toe where a person with a normal healthy toe will not when experiencing the same force... again an argument of subjectivity. I could probably come up with a few more but I think I made my point.

 

I'm not suggesting anything, Nigel. Christians suggest these things. If you have a dispute with something in my post, you'll need to take it up with those who simultaneously claim god planned everything we'd ever do, and that we have free will.

 

Thus PERCEPTION IS SUBJECTIVE....but REALITY IS NOT.

The person with nerve damage might not feel the pain but that persons body and in this case BIG TOE....will incure very REAL PHYSICAL DAMAGE AND TRAUMA!!

My example of stubbing one's toe was specific to EQUAL ABILITY OF PERCEPTION.....as if they don't feel the pain their PERCEPTION IS SUBJECTIVE....but the REALITY of their Toe becoming most likely BLACK AND BLUE or even breaking the toe bone is VERY REAL.

AboveAlpha

 

If perception is subjective then how can a universal reality ever be determined? To me this smacks of the argument used by many theists... that being God exsists even thought we cannot see Him. If universal reality exsists independent of our perception, what does it matter as it can never be objectively seen?

And that trauma will vary from person to person based upon many different factors like age, elasticity of the skin, the density of bone, blood flow to the area, force of impact, angle of impact, density of material struck by the toe, rounded or edged material the toe strikes... etc.. thus the subjectivity.

Likely implies the absence of an absolute thus an argument against some set in stone reality.

As in your own words "the REALITY of their Toe becoming most likely BLACK AND BLUE or even breaking the toe bone is VERY REAL" which supports my argument of subjectivity. Even if we conducted a clinical trial where toes were impacted in exactly the same way the results would still vary thus the subjectivity. The reality for one may be a broken toe, the reality of another may be a laceration, the reality of another may be a bruise, the reality for yet another may be a scuff... again showing the subjectivity of reality. If we were to measure the pain there would likely be those who said it was not that bad, the numb toed person would say they did not feel a thing, while others would be rolling on the flood crying... again a demonstration of the subjectivity of reality.

 

It demonstrates that sensory perception when damaged causes subjective assessment of the damage....but upon inspection there will be damage.....using the word LIKELY....is specific to the extent of the damage but in REALITY there will be damage to varying extent dependent upon F=MA.

As well CONDITION will vary the damage....but damage occurring is a REALITY.

AboveAlpha

 

By your own words you argued that perception is subjective... with that said then how can a universal reality ever be determined? If universal reality exsists independent of our perception, what does it matter as it can never be objectively seen as we are bound by the limits of our perception?

 

That's why we use Mathematics and Probes that can see IR-Light, X-Ray, Doppler Effect...etc.

Human perception might be subjective....but Reality is not.

AboveAlpha

 

If math and science is the basis of reality then why is science ever evolving? Evolving science demonstrates that a current reality can become an obsolete reality when new evidence comes into play and thus becomes the new reality. If a reality changes was it ever reality or just the illusion thereof? How do we know that our currently perceived reality is not just an illusion that will in the future be debunked and replaced by a newer reality... which may or may not even be the actual reality? Why are you so sure about reality when it has changed so often throughout the course of human history? Do you assume we are at the pinnacle of our scientific knowledge? If not then I argue that new scientific discoveries will redefine reality in the future thus again begging the question was the old reality ever a reality or just the illusion thereof? You are arguing absolutes in an ever changing landscape.

 

First of all SCIENCE is just a METHOD that uses Observation, Calculation, Experimentation and Logic among other things that allow us to discern aspects of REALITY.

Science and the SCIENTIFIC METHOD would be the same process we would use to determine if an actual GOD exists.

You talk about science as if it were some form of VOODOO or RELIGIOUS DOGMA.......it is not.

As far as Mathematics.....there has NEVER in the HISTORY OF HUMANITY BEEN A CASE WHERE THE MATH INDICATED SOMETHING TO EXIST......and then it didn't.

If a Scientific Theory that is a theory based upon the Scientific Method is proven incorrect well that happens all the time as it was a THEORY AS for it to become a proven reality the MATHEMATICS MUST BACK IT AND BE USED AS A PROOF.

A Mathematical Proof?

Example.....10 - 3 = 7......the PROOF.....7 + 3 = 10.

Of course we are no where NEAR having either the total data or information necessary to come close to knowing even 10% of what REALITY really is.....but we can rule out a great many things that have become False Religious Dogma.

AboveAlpha

 

General blanket claims are so wrong they are considered a fallacy, your claim is no exception. Free will vs determinism vs God being near or completely all knowing is hotly debated even today. It and variations of that theme are argued by dueling professors from the campuses of Ivy league schools to John Does interested in the subject.
I am a christian and my overview of reality both seen and unseen does not fit your idea at all. We can have free will as well as a God that knows your future and the future of earth and the universe. God does not plan everything we will do, that is a cop out. We decide what we will do, if we screw up and choose not to beleive, it's not Gods fault if you go to sleep one day and lose your soul to everlasting darkness and the grave (Sheol).

God can know our future in the same way a physicist knows the momentum and path a quantum particle will take to a very very high degree of accuracy. I said high degree of accuracy for a reason. In actuality the laws of quantum physics forbid anyone knowing the path and momentum of said particle to an accuracy of 100%. Its a semi complicated analogy but one anyone can understand, and demonstrates why, with all due respect your claim is wrong.~reva~

 

Can I have this dance? Lol.. Good question! Science evolves for one reason. Take away the emotion etc and we know the reason science 'evolves' is because it was wrong. No matter that many of us and nearly all 'secular's' beleive that science lie, and that good possibility the next scientific 'truth' they discover will be another falsehood in part or in those people still rely on science to define their reality.

It was a con, or the false claim may have been a mistake, the only question I have is was there was intent? Each claim of science should be inspected with that question in mind.

Congrats! You are enlightened!

Very well said, great post! I do love science but take every claim of science with the proverbial bit of salt (in some cases I must use a chunk of salt). I use science to vindicate and verify my belief in God the creator. (I coined a title for the creator its ; 'GID' which is short for 'God the Intelligent Designer'. Its the belief that God is real that I consider the ultimate truth. So likewise its religion and the never-changing truth of (God) and his works that define and describe my reality. ~reva~

 

AboveAlpha….. back in 1990…… after taking high levels of a nutritional supplement named Matol…….. and after making an unusual offer to YHWH/ HaShem/ The G-d of Abraham……… I heard audible voice while I was praying……….. the words were……"Ask of me whatever you want and I will give it to you?"

Well…… the unusual offer that I had made…….was for YHWH/ HaShem/ The G-d of Abraham to dump the guilt of Azazel…..(whatever that was)…… on my head…… if he had any use for a volunteer goat for Azazel…. as mentioned in Leviticus 16:10

(Here is a further explanation for all this as I explained this to a Messianic Jewish audience):
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/yom-kippur-the-rapture-connection.7647325/

…… AboveAlpha….. I was a little suspicious that the voice that I heard might be of Azazel………. I was wondering if the old saying….."there is honour even among thieves"…. might well apply to this situation……. I suspected that Azazel might know about the offer that I had made to pay off his debt/ guilt for him……. so maybe it is part of his ethic to reward something like that…………. and I wondered if the question might be along the line of what somebody else heard as explained in Matthew 4……

Matthew 4:8
"Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me."


…… So…. I was a little worried that there was a lot at stake…….. so I really thought and thought about how to reply……. but fairly quickly I came up with something that I knew that would work…………. As best as I can remember I replied something like:……"Back in the days of Job………. you could still go up and meet with YHWH, The Ancient of Days, the Heavenly Father……… well how about you go as close as you can still go……. and simply pray for Crazy Tate to be given……….. .more wisdom than Christ……… so that I can be inspired to play you an interesting game of chess…… with five billion unlimited movement variables….." (I quickly added……."more wisdom than Christ while he was human", I was going through a great deal of philosophical and theological cognitive dissonance at that time having read some negative near death experiences that did not fit with my theology at that time).

Well……… AboveAlpha….. this morning I woke up with a plan in mind that can finance…………

http://www.politicalforum.com/canad...ts-take-937-those-syrian-refugees-canada.html
Mr. Justin Trudeau, let's take 937 of those Syrian refugees to Canada?

…….

AboveAlpha…… google the phrase….."unified theory of modern world problems" and you will soon notice that a guy named DennisTate…… uses this phrase more than just about anybody else………….

So…………. if over the coming weeks and months and years………. some guy who prays a lot can come up with a somewhat workable……UFTMWP, (Unified Field Theory of Modern World Problems)…….. would this tend to be evidence of a higher level of guidance that you would suspect probably access a more fundamental form of energy than UFO's or aliens? (I was wondering how the word "field" could fit in there but it does………."the field is the world" (Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus)

 

As I was going over that offer…. and thinking about the implications of that question I had heard in my mind so clearly…………. I prayed that Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus…… (my lawyer in all this)……….(whose rendition of Moshicah/ Messiah the Passover Lamb, made it possible for me to visualize myself as a somewhat kosher metaphorical Yom Kippur goat)……. I asked him to draw the attention of Azazel…….. to the word "with" and explain to him how it could be viewed in so many ways………………… wouldn't it be interesting if the Devil…………….. actually…………… had a follower of his opponent………. who he rather respected for at least attempting to pay off his debts/ guilt………. and initiate the "marriage of heaven and hell" that so many philosophers have written about???????

Later on…… I realized that the voice that I had heard…….. had not been that of Azazel……. but instead was either Messiah Yeshua - Jesus……. or perhaps the Arch Angel Uriel…… who in the Book of Enoch….. was termed the "King of terror and calumny." In 1999 I heard audible voice again………. and the voice said……."Are you sure you want to reign in hell, or do you want me to do it?"………….. Rather quickly I replied…… if you spell reign…… R - A - I - N…. that sounds like a great idea……… go right ahead……. then I thought and prayed and thought until 4/4/4, April 4, 2004….. and I answered that fascinating question more fully………..

 

The following is a purely hypothetical and if it resembles anyone here *cof* its all a fictional mistake.

I have a question. If a many-account member stops posting or falls in a forest does the owner hear it? If yes, hopefully gets rid of the dead wood and its attending debris. Debris equals all his alter egos and the fabricated back patters memberships? I hope so and I hope its soon, we are becoming the laughing stock around here.

Lastly to stay on topic God will never attempt to prove his existence no more than would Obama...wait! ~reva~

 

But here's the deal with John 14:6......it's talking about that Consciousness, which each person has a fragment of it, as received by the transceiver which is the brain. So of course its truth, and the way and the life. For it is all that there is, and from which the universe manifested. But then people want to go and give in human qualities, we want the Greater Set, to be like the subset. And we impose that subset upon the Greater Set, by creating various images, and attributing various qualities to it. Now as long as you know and understand what you are doing, its fine, no problem. But when you do not understand, do not see what you are doing, then problems will always arise, bad ones.

What has happened, is that all of these images the brain has created about the truth, the way, the life, have been taken literally, instead of remaining as metaphors. And with that you get fundamentalism, the most dangerous interpretation of scripture, for it takes one on the wrong path, and leads nowhere. It has led away from the Kingdom, instead of to it. For the Kingdom is within, and its that fragment of Consciousness, that each brain receives, but is unaware of. So it takes an inward search, knocking on metaphorical doors, which is not something orthodox Christians do, nor even think about. Instead, they have created this idol, this blood sacrifice, and start to believe in all sorts of fantastical things, that look to be fairy tales, and are fairy tales. Someone who follows the rules of orthodoxy, in order to be saved, is running away full speed from finding that Kingdom Christ tried to teach humanity about. Instead of looking inside for it, they are looking outside for it. Searching in the wrong spot.

 

But consciousness can also believe in lies and get people to behave insanely outside of Reality, too.
The Consciousness which does not recognize Truth, sees fantasy as what is thought to be real.

You can not maintain what you say here unless you admit the consciousness which sees Truth is a factor in the whole idea.

 

How is Intelligent Design different from the very old and simple First Cause idea?

We see design in Reality because Natural Laws are the spirit of the Reality which continuously unfolds.
Those Natural Laws are like a machine which changes in what exists.
But those changes are revealed as subject to rules we have been discovering.

The only issue is what caused the Big Bang appearance of the Universe to start with.
I was a First Cause, as Science had claimed as its first Axiom.

Science says everything can be explained as Cause and Effect.
Everything EXCEPT the First Cause of the Big Bang.

No ID is necessary, is it?

 

So here again, you believe in Reality and find the Truth reveals it.

You are a Christian in that sense, but a devil who apparently avoids the Truth if it goes against your self centered desires to enjoy evil lies, (like Child Abuse to fatherless kids).

 

I agree.

The above quote supports my argument of the subjectivity of reality as the above is just your inaccurate interpretation of what I am saying which in "reality" is far removed from what I actually said.

At least that we can agree on.

 

Having problems are one of the defining things of being Human.

We learn from making mistakes and learn to solve problems....and those that do not hopefully do not enter the Gene Pool.

AboveAlpha