Should a 'he' be called a 'she' if they still have a penis?

You said on multiple occasions you could "generally" tell.

In the context, "generally" means "most of the time." Synonymously, "not all of the time" means the same thing.

You've said your "success" in identifying Transvestites occurs not all of the time.

 

Yes. But I have yet to encounter such a person. Well if I was fooled I don't know how I would know that. Most of them aren't fooling anybody.

 

BINGO!!!!!!



Give the man his x-dressing kewpie doll!!!!

 

Clearly the vast majority of men don't look like women even if they dress like them. Testosterone makes your body look different. So generally because men look different than women I can tell.

 

Until you actually see if they have a penis or vagina, you call them what they claim to be. Unless you are that pervert that is going to check their junk?

 

I disagree. If i see a man with a raging hipster beard, I'm calling him a he.

I rarely see penises and vaginas but I've never referred to a person as anything other than he or she.

 

Actually nowadays, there are women who are having facial hair issue are working with it not getting rid of it. My one, being of Italian descent, sports a light mustache. It's only really noticeable on her close up. But there are other women, either by racial traits, or hormonal problems, who grow facial hair. While they would have daily shaved it before, some are getting creative with it.

http://jezebel.com/5946643/reddit-users-attempt-to-shame-sikh-woman-get-righteously-schooled

 

Well let's look at this from the other side of the argument. If you see a Female to Male trans with a raging hipster beard...What would you call them?

The pendulum does swing both ways and I'll grant you that it's a bit easier for a woman to pass for a man when they're transitioning. Heather Alexander (a folk musician) transitioned from Female to Male.

Before...



And after as Alexander James Adams



So...what would you call this person now?

 

Exceptions don't negate the rule.

My one, being of Italian descent, sports a light mustache. It's only really noticeable on her close up. But there are other women, either by racial traits, or hormonal problems, who grow facial hair. While they would have daily shaved it before, some are getting creative with it.[/QUOTE]But none sporting a full hipster beard. Thanks for completely ignoring the point.

 

A transman? Well I'd address him as he, I'd treat him as a male. He presents himself as one. I would be safe in assuming his gender and addressing him as male. I inadvertently called a person that appeared to be female sir, though she had a vary male appearance in a tool store a couple weeks back when i first saw him. I apologized and said ma'am. He grinned and told me he preferred sir. Now every time i see him I address him as male.

Of course it does. I have seem some very attractive transmen though I would treat them as men, they aren't male and on a fundamental level I don't know if I'd ever think of them as male. But they are few and far between. Most transmen look like very young boys to me. I can spot them as if they were painted orange. But outside of debate I wouldn't bring it up. It's rude and i have no idea what it's like to be trans, so i make my best effort to treat them no differently than others of the sex they identify with. It doesn't take that much.

 

No, we don't. Crazy people can and do claim to be just about anything/anyone, but no one indulges them outside of perhaps misinformed family/friends, and doctors in a hurry.

Social identity is negotiated, not demanded - unless you're 3 years old, crazy, or a raging narcissist.

 

So when a person approaches you and claims to be male, you're going to check their crotch area to see whether they are male or female?

 

No one DOES introduce themselves via their gender. Names are the standard intro.

As for situations requiring a gendered address, I'd call it as I see it. If it's clearly a man (in a dress), then I'll address him as male. I have no way of knowing if he's an occasional cross dresser, or gender dysphoric. No one has any way of knowing that. The individual with the 'problem' must therefore adapt themselves to a clueless public, and be gracious in doing so. Only the rude/crazy/toddler will have a tantrum.

 

It's really wierd that you ask these bizarre questions. No most people evaluate the appearance.

 

For some reason my voice over the phone sounds feminine. I am a male and my name isn't one that could go to either gender, like say Chris. However as soon as someone calls me "ma'am" and I correct them to "sir", they apologize and address me as such. There are plenty of feminine looking men and masculine looking women out there, and even women who don't bother to hide their facial hair, as I provided a link for before. So you are saying that when you call someone "ma'am" and they correct you to "sir", you're just going to brazenly continue on and called them "ma'am"?

 

I don't know why you keep beating this dead horse. I think I've said it to you twice now and here's the third time.

Address people as male or female in public however they wish

I've never seen the bearded lady. I don't doubt that exist but it's an extreme Rarity that I have never encountered in my day-to-day life. So I don't give a s*** about your link sweetheart. Also men that could pass for women are an extreme Rarity, extreme Rarity's aren't the norm so they don't render the rule useless.

no

 

Most of the emphasis of the reply was on Crank who stated that he would call a person by how they look not what they claimed. Which is why I asked that question.

Italian and East Indian and a lot of mid eastern women naturally have facial hair. In other cases they have polycystic ovary syndrome. Some by religion do not get rid of it. Others are not bothering to any more, even working with it. A lot of times these women are mistaken for men.

As for rarity/not the norm, neither is left-handedness. If they are passing as women (as opposed to presenting as women), then how would you know how rare that was, short of asking everyone if they were cis or trans or even DQ? And let us not forget in this whole thing the women trying, and many succeeding, in passing as men.

 

Than why post it as a response to me and not her?

it's like you can't read. only one of these pictures shows a bearded woman and women that if they grow facial hair don't grow f****** beards. I have never once seen it in person.

you confuse Norm with not rare. About 10% of people are left-handed. 1 in 10 may suggest it's a little less common but it damn sure isn't rare. In a nation of 325 million people that's 32 million people. That's a nation it's not rare. In the country of 325 million people you Source a picture of a person from India? That's a statistical zero.

I have never seen a bearded woman. So passing as a woman even though you have a beard well that's not exactly anything anyone can measure.

How do you know there's women passing as men or men passing as women are you inspecting crotches? How do you know I'm not seeing something that's a biological trait? How many people do you think exist that don't have the biological traits of their gender?

Or are you just claiming we can't know for sure so it's all up in the air?

 

First off how do you know Crank is a she? Something from previous interactions? As to the why, looking back at the post the only thing I can think of is that I misread it as saying something different.

I can't read and I you can't count. Two of those women have beards. Naturally grown beards at that. The third has a mustache. Not a very full one, but one nonetheless. Which all come back to the fact that there are indeed women who have facial hair. And it is a racial trail, or in some cases a disorder, PCOS.

The first two are sikh, and as such are not allowed by religious dictate to shave or trim their beard. However should either of them wish, ignoring religious restrictions, they could quite easily sport a raging hipster beard.

Your lack of seeing such an individual in person means nothing to their actual and factual existence.

First off, since when were we limiting this concept to a single country? Seems to me that trans and women with natural facial hair is a worldwide thing. There are approximately 24 million Sikhs in the world, most in the Middle East and Southern Asia. There is a little over a million here in North America. According to a 2011 census, the Sikh population is about 903 women per 1000 men. So that is roughly 900,000 in North America and about 21.6 million worldwide. Of course the question is how many grow facial hair. Haven't found statistics on that yet, but given it is a common thing in that region, it would be quite a significant number. Approximately 8-20% of women worldwide are affected by PCOS. It is estimated that there is 5 million in the US alone. Not exactly a rare thing.

That would probably more accurately be, how many people do we think exist that have biological traits we associate with the opposite gender? After all, there are many men who end up developing breast. Even Seinfeld had an entire episode on the topic. This all goes back to what my point was and what you agreed to, we address people as what they claim.

 

She told me.

Fair enough.

No one did. Patchy whiskers are not a beard.

Nontheless had nothing to do with my point.

A point that makes no sense. I never said there isn't a woman on the planet that has a beard or whiskers. I mentioned a general rule. Finding an extremely rare exception doesn't undo the rule.

No, they couldn't. Only one had a beard. The other had Patchy whiskers.

This is a hipster beard

Nonsense.

Transwomen aren't women they are men so that supports my point.

Seeing them with a hipster beard is.

Is like talking to a door.

Exceptions aren't the rule.

 

I've never been mistaken for a male IRL (I'm petite, pale, ballerina-ish, and speak like a girl). I am however, mistaken for male online all the time. I only ever correct people if it's pertinent to the topic. To laboriously correct everyone would be me having an ego tantrum.

Once again, only the very rude, narcissistic, insane, or very young will demand corrections from every one they meet.

 

It is a shame to see this issue polarized, politicized, and emotionalized and not discussed rationally.
It is no simple matter in any case.

It is even worse when forum members cannot have a polite discussion and needs resort to rudeness and other course behaviors to make a point, the bathroom issue is a prime example.

Much Ado about nothing.

 

When did the bathroom issue come up before in this thread?

 

I'm going to go back to the original topic of this thread.

I'm going to call them whatever comes to mind based on their appearance and actions. If they act male, I'll use male pronouns. If female...female ones.

I'm likely to make a mistake or two along the way. However if I use the wrong pronoun and I'm corrected...I'm not going to act offended, I'll simply apologize, and start using the preferred one.

And that's all most transgendered people ask and I'm happy to oblige.

It's as simple as that. Actual wedding tackle is irrelevant to me. Transitioning status equally so. I don't need to know (or want to for that matter) the status of the naughty bits.

 

It did not, I used it as an example.

If a human with X genetalia wishes to be identified as X gender, I am fine with that, and I am willing to provide a nice clean private bathroom at my own expense as well as any goods and services I am prepared to offer.