So how does one determine Protestantism over Catholicism or vice-versa?

Do you share all the beliefs your parents have? Generally speaking we tend to take on the things that are taught to us and acceptable and socially beneficial in whatever community we live. Does that mean we can't have our own, independent, and even socially unpopular thoughts and beliefs? I am not religious. And while I can observe and identify norms and trends, I don't dare argue people of faith are all indoctrinated and ignorant. That is obtuse. One who cannot see any of the benefits of faith and religion is as closed minded and ignorant as the most fundamental, indoctrinated, sheep. A truly independent, thinking mind is a rare jewel.

 

Where does one find the true message of Jesus? What early church fathers didn't believe Jesus was God? And when you say the church has manipulated the Bible, which one or ones do you speak of and what are their infractions?

 

Don't expect an honest answer.

 

I didn't ask hoping for some insight....it was my southern, sweet way of saying you're terribly uneducated on these topics. I probably overestimate most people...assuming a few critical questions will bring some level of enlightenment. ..or at least curiosity. ...and maybe just maybe a tendency to think before you post....but I'm forever an optimist. I asked questions hoping the OP would take the time to do a little research to prepare an answer and learn something in the process. Hey, it could happen

 

Stranger things have happened.. so maybe your 'hope' will be manifested.

 

True message of Jesus ? Seek and you shall find. Start with the Golden Rule as this is the "Royal Law" (according to James) and sums up the law and the prophets according to Jesus.

Almost every time Jesus is talking about the kingdom of heaven he talks about doing good works.

None of the early Church fathers believed that Jesus was God (God of Abraham). They believed that Jesus was both separate and subordinate to the Father.

Clement of Rome, Ignatius, Irenaeus, Polycarp, Justin Martyr to name a few. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subordinationism

It is not like these facts are some big secret. In addition every time Jesus refers to God he is referring to someone other than himself. It was Constantine in 325 AD that made the Trinity official doctrine.

You will also find Subordinationism in some of the books in the oldest Bibles. (Shepard of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabas). These books were later removed from the Bible.

When new Bibles are compared to older versions thousands of changes are found. Most are not significant but some are very significant and it is clear that these changes were made to make the Bible better conform to the doctrine of the day. If you are truly interested let me know and I will show.

 

Careful with that one. Firstly Incorp does not trust anything in the Bible as he claims it is all subjective. He does not accept objective reality. He claims that the Bible contains errors and then in a most disingenuous fashion insults other people that do the same.

Second, calling someone "terribly uneducated" without hearing what they have to say is a bit of an "uneducated approach" don't you think ?

Third - That you do not realize the Bible has changed with time, and are seemingly unaware of subordinationism does not exactly suggest an in depth knowledge of the subject matter.

 

And Inc even agrees with you on the trinity thing.

 

He seems pissed at me. Probably because I started to use his dismissal of objective reality against him and he has no retort.

 

Well, that's actually a complicated question with no simple answers, and answer can fill up entire volumes. I'll start with a list of missing books from the Bible:

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/S-deception_Bible_Canon_Lost-Books

http://www.answering-christianity.com/lost_books.htm

Another good example of Bible manipulation is that there are a lot of different Bibles out there with different books added in or taken out.

Then there are translation mistakes and cultural misunderstandings.

For example, if you are protestant, do you actually know the origins of some of the things like Sola Scriptura and faith is good works and who proposed them?

Do you know about people like Thomas Aquinas and Martin Luther and how they influence the Christian religion?

There's a lot to Christianity and when you start digging into these kinds of things you will actually find out some interesting and startling things about what actually went on behind the scenes and how these things influenced Christianity over the years.

 

First I'd like to say thanks for your thoughtful response...Constantine and Paul were probably two of the most important figures ever regarding Christianity. I've read Ehrman ' s Early Christianities. Evidently it took a couple of centuries for them to get on the same page Nicene Creed, the canonization of books.... Sure, the Bible has changed and different translations have different slants. Ever read The Gospel of Q? One of my favorites regarding the evolution of thinking and texts regarding Jesus. From sage to savior...
I am interested in your thoughts. I'm a very open minded skeptic. And every now and then cross paths with a like mind.

 

The Apocrypha? Johanine comma? Dating of the earliest extant manuscript regarding the adulteress and casting the first stone? The Protestant Reformation? Predestination vs. Free will? Nicea? The Septuagent? Nah, don't know a thing.

 

From the guy who denies anything is true but what he believes. That's irony.

 

Assuming I don't think the Bible has changed with time is a bit of an uneducated approach, don't ya think? I never stated such. I had a high school teacher who used to say assuming makes an ass out of you n me

 

I wasn't accusing or trying to be insulting. I apologize if it seems that way. I just didn't know what you knew.

 

Then ask. I will freely admit what I dont know and research what I want to find out. No offense taken Challenge me. That's why I am here. Not to proselytize those without faith or to criticize those with it. To deepen my own understanding...and have interesting dialog. Ya'll

 

It is also guess work based on the track record of communications between you and me.

 

I enjoyed the conversations between giftedone and trevor. Hope GeorgiaAmy can be as enlightening and maybe trevor will weigh in also.

 

Jesus believed in salvation by faith, as demonstrated on the thief on the cross who He said would be in Paradise that day. Up until that time he had done only bad works.

- - - Updated - - -

Giftedone is making that up.

IMHO the true message of Jesus can be found in John 3:16-17. He said He came to seek and save the lost.

There was no manipulation of the Bible, that is Dan Brown fantasy stuff. The people who allege that have no evidence for it. We have fragments of the NT from 114 AD, complete books from the early 200s, they are the same as today.

 

Actually Jesus came to fulfill Jewish law.

 

Did Jesus accomplish that task? Also, is that the only reason Jesus came into being?

 

1. I don't know enough to say, and there's a lot of debate over this.

2. No, just the primary reason.

 

Why do you think it is the "primary reason"? I also take note of the fact that you are not making a claim of certainty as to whether or not Jesus accomplished that task that you said was His primary reason for being here.

 

According to the story, jesus did that. He also talked many times about works.

Proof? No.

2 verses is the whole message of Jesus? Guess the other words are for style points? But everyone picks out of the bible what works for them.
I believe he posted how the bible was manipulated. So you'd be wrong. again.

 

In your statement regarding "..the whole message of Jesus", you have made a misrepresentation of what Paul7 stated. Nowhere did Paul7 make such a comment. The words that Paul7 used were:
"IMHO the true message of Jesus can be found in John 3:16-17."