Social Security and Medicare are . . . ENTITLEMENTS???

Discussion in 'Political Opinions & Beliefs' started by thinkitout, Oct 17, 2018.

  1. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    Oh come on. "WE" have nothing to do with the factors that have produced a record income and wealth disparity. It is done TO us. I could go on with many more examples but you get my point I'm sure.
     
  2. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    The expanding cost of social security, Medicare, and Medicaid are contributing to the deficit but the Trump tax cuts, and military spending are also contributing as well. Soon interest payments on the debt will also increase the deficit as well.
     
  3. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    In your post you specifically targeted the outrageous overcharges exploiting the needs of those requiring services of the medical community. Let's consider the exorbitant price hikes of pharmaceuticals, 1000% and greater with no substantiation. . . . Do they REALLY need or deserve to keep ALL those excess profits???
    Forcible exploitation of dire need is defined as EXTORTION.

    The same goes for other privatized industries; if they weren't so wasteful and greedy, or if they were more closely regulated in order to trim excesses, I would not oppose tax cuts, if they were truly merited. The middle and lower class should not have to tighten their belts so that the "fat cats" can loosen theirs.
     
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  4. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Rising medical costs and the burden placed on the system by uninsured patients is a notable factor, as is massive tax cuts for the wealthy. With congressional support of ETHICAL regulation and taxation, government COULD get the deficit under control.
     
  5. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    .
    Look up the number of people with great success and wealth, and see how many started with nothing. Microsoft, Hewlett-Packard and a hundred others were started in garages. Elon Musk borrowed $26K from family members for his first business venture. Warren Buffet borrowed from family for his first investment, and that was just a few hundred dollars. Some people, like the man who founded Bank of America- had only an eight -grade education. Check the history of Oprah Winfrey's early life. Ordinary people- until they decided to do extraordinary things.

    We are the ones who create businesses. We invent the products and services. We are the people who provide the demand, and the people who produce the goods, buy the goods, spend the money, invest the money. We are the economy. This is not to say that some people or segments have far more influence than others, but generally those people also have far more invested and at risk. The fact that so many do not has more to do with their choices than anything else.

    It is how we do things, what we do- including how we establish governance and how we allow it to operate that makes things what they are. While it is always easiest to blame someone or something else, but it is always us. However it is very hard to get people to listen to reason in todays world- for many it's more important to disagree than to do the right thing. Not a chance that the public will get together and do the right thing on it's own.... we are too involved in short-term self interest. People will vote for the person who promises them the most reward for the least effort, so long as somebody else pays. It's also true that the "somebody else" is really US.

    The economy has never been a social welfare program which insures everyone benefits under some rule of equality, and it was never meant to be. Just as there are outstanding producers and leaders, there are those who never carried themselves for a moment in their lives and as the old saying goes- aren't worth the powder it would take to blow them to hell. There will always be substantial disparities, the very rich, the very poor. Giving people money does not make them rich, any more than giving people drugs makes them happy and whole. If they don't know what it is worth and how to build it, they will piss it away and bankrupt themselves- as a great many lottery winners have proven.

    Technology has changed our economy dramatically, and that has much to do with the wider income disparity. Jobs that used to require a great deal of skill can now be done by people with a couple weeks training- and are worth a lot less money. For example, a top machinist 40 years ago was hard to find. Today, a computer runs the machines- the operator loads a blank of metal, indexes the tool to a start point and pushes a button. We call him a "machinist", but most of them would be lost if you put them in front of a mill or lathe that wasn't computer controlled. The man who write the CNC program however is quite valuable- but we don't need near as many or them. Fewer high-paid, more low paid jobs are happening. Receptionists have been replaced by auto-attendant phone systems. Tech support is a ninny in front of a monitor, clicking on the problems or questions of the customer, and reading off the answers as if he understood it all. It's just more economical to do away with skilled people and use automation- in part, because it is more reliable and a lot less trouble. It's also progress, and something we need to learn to adapt to.

    In fact, there are more opportunities today than at any time in my life. I'm too old to do it now- but I can easily produce a sound start-up business idea every day, and usually something that can be done without substantial money. However- people will spend years looking for the "easy" button, and walk past real opportunity day after day... never finding the "opportunity" to get rich overnight. I find that sad.
     
  6. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It helps if you can put yourself in the position of those you have complaints about.
    Have you noticed how many of the ads you see on TV are for a medication, and half the ad is pre-emptive warnings designed to protect against lawsuits?
    How many of the ads are lawyers telling people that if you too a pill and developed gas, you may be entitled?
    Our medical industry has become a gold mine for the legal profession.

    If you doubt that, look at the number of lawyers per 100,000 population.
    In Japan, it is 7.
    In England, the near king of litigation, it is 83.
    However in America- it is 287. We have more that triple the lawyers as the worlds next highest country.

    It's not uncommon for judgments to top $100 million. Many companies are destroyed- such as Dow Corning in the first breast implants.... now proven to never have been a real issue.

    IF you were a OB/Gyn doctor, your malpractice insurance alone may run as high as $200,000 per year. If you have surgery- everyone involved, doctors, anesthesiologists, have separate malpractice insurance policies to pay for.

    Who is paying for that? The pharma industry, the medical industry, add the losses and costs of defense into the charges for their services. The tylenol is free to them, promotional supplied my manufacturers. They charge you $15 a pill because of the vast costs of protection they have to build in somewhere.... which wind up in your insurance premium. Moody's, the financial operations review site, states:
    Overall, the report found hospitals' median operating margin fell from 3.4 percent in FY 2015 to 2.7 percent in FY 2016. They make only around 3% on their total revenue- so who is getting the rest? Insurance companies and tort lawyers.

    We concern ourselves with fixing insurance, but fail to address the costs that make insurance so expensive.
     
  7. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    A simple solution to rising medical costs is to adopt a healthcare system like other developed nations. Healthcare in other developed countries cost 2 1/2 times less than the US and cover 100% of the population.

    To get the deficit under control require 60 votes for all proposals that add to the deficit or regulations and 50 for those that don't add to the deficit and remove as least as many regulations as added.
     
  8. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    When you consider whether life and death have any meaning at all, one has to contemplate on whether one's mundane existence should merely entail concentrating on cultivation of a lucrative profession and supporting oneself, or whether personal value increases by using one's acquired resources, if he or she is able, to benefit others. . . . But you or I are unable to correct our nation's shortcomings alone; it will take a collective effort initiated by the general public which will then be orchestrated by government, but you and others have maintained a formidable resistance.

    If you have indeed worked with drug recovery programs, you obviously know that drug addiction is extremely difficult to overcome, but did you know that the OVERWHELMING majority of drug addicts who VOLUNTARILY seek entry into the programs are turned down for lack of sufficient funding or insurance, and are unable to support themselves because they can't hold down a job??? Yet you imply that they should not be helped because they do not deserve it.

    Whether you are willing to admit it or not, you are advocating "survival of the fittest". . . . Which is inevitable for wild animals in the jungle, but has no place in civilized society.
     
  9. thinkitout

    thinkitout Well-Known Member

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    Lawyers are only the tip of the iceberg; do you advocate tax reductions for them also???

    Considering welfare recipients: Do we punish all of them because some abuse the system??? . . . It is a valid question considering your position on tax cuts.
     
  10. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    You're talking about high IQ people who were born to supportive families typically, and who were in the right place at the right time. You know damned well half the population cannot hope to be the next Bill Gates or Elon Musk. As such your argument is specious.
     
  11. Eleuthera

    Eleuthera Well-Known Member Donor

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    Well I eventually did. Aren't I smart as hell?

    The point is that to comply with the law I had to enroll in SS. All these years later, I'm glad I did.
     
  12. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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  13. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The arguments to support the pursuit of failure are endless. Oprah Winfrey was not a Gates or Musk, but the property taxes on her home today are $975,000 a year. Some people come from a sh*thole and still prove you wrong. Get over the idea that success belongs only to the brilliant and the lucky- success is more open to the average person of average intelligence today than ever in history. Brilliant people fail too. The difference is in spirit, in heart, in the ability to fail, to learn, and to get up and try again

    The answers are not in the "Why I can't" box, and never will be.
    Look for the "How I can" box.
     
  14. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    I never used the word kill. Deflection denied.
    And a lack of a source saying what the R's mean by reform, duly noted.
     
  15. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    In fact here's my post. NOTE: NO killing.
     
  16. dairyair

    dairyair Well-Known Member

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    Those 10% have something like 80% of the wealth. Doesn't sound so sweet to the other 90%. They 90% are the one's being exploited by your folks with you hands in the pockets of the politicians.

    And you asked a while ago why Spain is so good in healthcare.
    I found out a reason. And responded to you.

    Here in case you missed it.

     
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  17. Kode

    Kode Well-Known Member

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    They prove me wrong when I say that HALF THE POPULATION will not each be the next Bill Gates or Elon Musk???????????? Obviously your statement is worse than ridiculous.


    Can you quote me where I said that? Be very careful. You're stacking up ridiculous charges against me. So far everything you have said in the post I'm quoting here is BS.


    -and in the psychology and position in life. A single woman-parent with no high school diploma who has an infant to care for isn't likely at all to start a successful business. In fact, most new business starts fail but they take time and work that a new parent doesn't have. I DIDN'T SAY IT NEVER HAPPENS. (Obviously I need to include caveats to keep you on track.)
     
  18. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Spain's internal healthcare system has nothing to do with the example I posted on Medical Tourism. Those costs are totally outside and direct- you can get the $50K American surgery done there, including airfare and hotel, for about the same as your deductible here. That reflects on the relative amount of excess costs padded into our system, which in turn explains why our insurance is do outrageous.

    Of course, those who aren't producing for themselves always like the idea that the winners have cheated- that way, they aren't losers, they are victims. Feels better to define it that way. That is also the true greed- thinking that you deserve part of what somebody else has produced just because you exist. The lowest paid person I have takes home $60K a year. Works on their own schedule. Doesn't even have a required number of hours, so long as the job is done. Do you think that is exploiting people?

    I've had years when I made less than anyone in the business I owned, and had them tell me they did all the work, and I made all the money. I've had them tell me that profitable results were thanks to them, and they should get most of the profit- but losing results were due to bad management, and they bear no responsibility for that. That is not an exception in business, it's quite common. Who is exploiting who?

    The opportunity for great success is not an exclusive club you need an invitation to join. If you think the other side of the fence is so lucrative, by all means- hock everything you own and open your own business tomorrow, and then "exploit" people. You could be rich by the end of the year.
     
  19. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    Should have cut spending proportionately more than tax cuts
     
  20. spiritgide

    spiritgide Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    I've repeatedly said that we are what we make ourselves to be.
    That single parent-
    Failed to value an education enough to attend high school, which has no tuition. Her choice, no excuse.
    Failed to either abstain or protect herself from pregnancy, which was her choice, no excuse.
    Can't afford child care because previous choices have consequences.

    She is in that position because of her own choices- not societies. Why is it the obligation of society to protect her from the consequences of her own actions?
    It's one thing to help others, and we are a generous people that does a great deal of that. However when you tell someone that we will bail them out no matter what they do, you don't help them at all. You also demonstrate to others that they can make the same kind of choices, and depend on government aid to cover their mistakes- you are promoting dependency.

    Smart people don't let sympathy lead to stupid conclusions that actually exacerbate the problem.

    In the late 70's I was broke, just divorced, diagnosed with cancer and needing substantial surgery, and had no insurance- and spent the winter living in a storage space with a space heater because I couldn't afford to rent an apartment. WHY have I never taken so much as an unemployment check from government?
    I explained my position to the doctors. Negotiated a low cost deal for treatment and time payment. Paid all the bills- doctors, hospital out of pocket. Was unable to get medical insurance for 10 years. Worked hard; lived cheap, rebuilt my life. Started my second business with nothing, just like I did the first one; but used the education of failure to find the path to success. The thing that makes me different than a million others is little more than determination to be responsible for myself. That isn't luck, gift, or anything of the kind- it is choice.

    We make ourselves what we are. The fact there are obstacles to be overcome is the nature of life, not some curse on the individual. Anybody can. The fact that few will is determined by their choices, and you and I have no power over that.
     
  21. Moonglow

    Moonglow Well-Known Member

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    I've been a single parent twice and not for the asinine reasons you conjure up...
     
  22. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Should have given the tax cuts to workers. Should have reformed healthcare and saved us trillions. Should have done tax reform to simplify taxes. Dreams. Sigh.
     
  23. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    The government is never simplifying taxes. They are never going to design a system that anyone other than their corporatist cronies can exploit to great advantage. Both parties.

    Workers did get cuts.
    Do you want them to pay nothing?

    The only reform healthcare needs is to get gov ernment out of it
     
  24. Distraff

    Distraff Well-Known Member

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    Workers got tiny tax cuts that will have to be payed back through new interest on debt, and social security and healthcare cuts. These tax cuts will get blown away with the new cost of living increases from tariffs and healthcare cost increases.

    What we need is real reform not a band aid.
     
  25. squidward

    squidward Well-Known Member

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    I want permanent sizable rate cuts across the board and drastically reduced spending. No subsidies, slash defense spending, slash welfare, get out of healthcare, disband the fed, which has done nothing but financialize our economy, turning it into a dead end of debt based consumerism
     

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