Socialism and Mutual Obligation

Not succeeding could be clue that your ideas are unworkable.

 

Wow. Your judgement is clearly skewed by partisan propaganda! You're saying that if the first attempts to fly an airplane meet with failure, it's a clue that the idea is unworkable.

 

We've had more than a century and a third of the globe experimenting on this sort of crackpottery, so I think the verdict is in and has been for a while.

However, let me state that I'm not opposed to your continuing experimenting. Just not with any nation I'm living in. Either move to the country that's the closest to your dream, or just join a small scale commune that closely matches your dreams. If you can make it work at the small scale, than you can expand to county level, or state level, but right now, I'll regard the pretty consistent global failure of systems that call themselves "socialist" as evidence enough that you are chasing a delusional dream. However, I'm willing to be proven wrong if you go out there and make it work.

 

Your judgement is clearly skewed by partisan propaganda! You're saying that if the first attempts to fly an airplane meet with failure, it's a clue that the idea is unworkable.

BTW, you don't get to decide how history will unfold.

 

I didn't say you did. But when you say....

... then the truth is that YOU DID! Try to stay up on what you post to keep your story straight.

 

So you probably should have concluded that that lack of detail or understanding of the mechanics of such a goal, meant those with a 'new interest in socialism' are either LARPing for attention and entertainment, or believe 'overthrowing capitalism' will magically provide them a comfortable middle-class life, while they pursue more lofty goals. Netflix, sleeping-in, the Arts, travel, cafe socials, etc.

Also, only State socialism can 'overthrow capitalism', and if you get State socialism you get totalitarianism. You will BEG for the capitalism you so carelessly overthrew. Once the LARPing novelty wears off, you'll spend the rest of your life regretting that you wished for something you'd never even bothered to think through.

 

WHY haven't they succeeded?

 

Nah, it meant that they weren't experts or people with extensive knowledge of the subject. IOW, they had more knowledge of the subject than you.

LOL!!!! Keep telling yourself that. I'm sure you'll eventually learn when it's too late.

 

Socialism has never been successfully implemented and therefore there is no book, no script, no guidelines for doing it. And therefore as in most of life, it's a trial-and-error process. But since past efforts and failures, socialists have examined the past experience and determined what went wrong so as to avoid those pitfalls next time, sorta like what the 1/6 fascists and thugs are doing to figure out how to oppress us all next time.

Thanks for asking.

 

It's not a technical problem (like getting a plane to fly), it's a HUMAN NATURE problem.

When at least 50% of your population do not want to participate, you can only ever achieve the appearance of a collective via force. But when it's forced it's not real .. there is no collective. The people are merely prisoners - forced to live in a certain way, in a certain place, eating certain food, doing certain work, and all according to tightly controlled parameters. If you think that's some kind of win for humanity, then I hate to think what you'd consider a loss.

Of course if you're prepared to give up all your freedoms to secure Govt cheese, the option is available to you now via actual prisons. If not .. you have two options. Learn to love the capitalism that gives you a far better life than that you'd have under State Socialism, or become a socialist. The third option - where you complain but do nothing - is not a thing. It's not real.

 

So you're telling me that you make it up as you go. Now it's suddenly a critique of human nature. LOL!!!!

 

So they're 'experts', but haven't the first clue of how any of it works. Hope you're not asking them important life questions, Kode. Ideologues are fun, but they're not the best people to take advice from!

What will I learn when what's too late? We've been living collectivism for 30 years, and are actually increasing the level of interdependence as time goes on. We're actually about to incorporate more land and more people. The more the merrier (and stronger), and in the meantime we're all safe from the wolf at the door. Any of us can lose our jobs or our health, and not have to worry about how we'll survive. We all have the autonomy and dignity of outright property ownership. We get to choose how much we'll engage with commerce, and we can even opt out of the system altogether if sufficiently determined.

The key is that we can choose. We are free to remove ourselves and our money from the market place - and that's only possible because of the shared resources and labour. One person cannot do it. Individuals cannot secure all that we have unless they're very wealthy. Of course if your goal is to promote individualism - every man for himself style - then you'll naturally embrace the capitalism which allows you to 'buy' your survival. But if you have to spend the rest of your life purchasing your survival, you're going to need pretty significant stores of money for when you're too old or too sick to work. Good luck with that, I guess.

 

No, State Socialism doesn't work because Human Nature works against it.

 

1) Because it CANNOT exist without totalitarianism. Even a child can be made to understand why it will only happen at gunpoint - because even a child knows we won't give up our freedoms and comforts without a fight. There are simply nowhere near enough starving people (and they're not starving, because capitalism has fed them so well) to ever get a consensus on state socialism. You can't keep fostering capitalism the way that you do - in being a slave to her charms - yet expect people to give it up happily.

2) No they haven't. If they'd figured out what went wrong they'd already know it's not possible. The fact they still think it's possible (and given these are the rich white people who think socialism will mean a comfortable middle class life for all), tells you they've invested zero thinking time in the human factor. If they've done all their 'thinking' at the theoretical and/or economic level, they're not serious. It's just more bored rich people LARPing.

 

I appreciate the fact that you crucially get that 21st Century socialism to young people basically means some sort of Universal Basic Income so they can work on crafts and hanging out in coffee shops instead of working in the fields under the hot sun. At least Cuba is serious about it and pulls it's students to work in the fields.

 

Anyone who thinks socialism isn't first work and obligation, is having a complete lend of themselves (any anyone who believes them when they call themselves socialists). I don't know how much of their BS is wilful and how much is ignorance. I can understand wilful, since claiming it and doing it are two entirely different things - and when you have an audience willing to think claiming is the same as doing, it's pretty much instant effort-free accolades. The ignorance factor is tougher to comprehend - in a cohort famous for declaring themselves educated, worldly, and intelligent.

 

Those who support socialism are not interested in the mutual part. Sorry.

 

Wow dude. Just wow. You need to read the posts you quote a bit more closely!

 

You say "no" and then you immediately agree with what I said. No wonder I find it so impossible to reason with you.

 

Not only are they not interested, they're actually the least interested. These are the very people most entrenched in the idea of individualism and non-conformity, and most opposed to merit.

They could not possibly be LESS socialist, in fact.

 

Only you know what you're talking about here, Kode.

 

So you have trouble understanding that telling me what socialists should do and how they should do it is, in essence, trying to direct how history should unfold? Really???

 

Well I mean, you do you. The conversation is pretty basic and orderly, so I'm guessing you've run out of corners for the time being.

Do come back when you're ready though - it's been nice to have a bit of back n forth

 

In 99.9% of cases, they never are. In fact you can pretty safely rely on the rule that if they're a Progressive and claiming to be Socialist, they'll be a poster child for Capitalism.

When it comes other such philosophical claims, it's usually a case of the claimant simply being a watered down iteration of whatever they're claiming to be - but in this case they're the polar opposite. That's quite a feat!