The Bible

My ancestors were from the UK, and i am neither proud nor ashamed of the actions that they took, in historical hindsight.

They repelled aggression, were overcome by aggression, attempted conquest, were deterred or sucessful..

They were human beings, in a storied tapestry of colorful history, and should not be denigrated by critics judging them through progressive, PC fantasies of self-righteous indignation.

 

How about Sirach Prologue 7-14 (CEB) = *7 Because of this, my grandfather, Jesus, who had devoted himself more and more 8 to the reading of the Law, 9 the Prophets, 10 and the other ancestral scrolls, 11 and had gained enough experience with them, 12 was himself led to compose a work dealing with education and wisdom. 13 His goal was that lovers of learning who were committed to education and wisdom[a] 14 should gain much more by living according to the Law.*


Sirach 50:27 (CEB) = Instruction in understanding and knowledge were inscribed in this scroll
and knowledge by Jesus, Sirach’s son and grandson of Eleazar the Jerusalemite.[a] He poured forth wisdom from his heart.


and Sirach 51:1-9 (CEB) = https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=sirach+51:1-9&version=CEB

It's odd but I can't find the book of Sirach in my - or the Hebrew Bible - Bible.
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And that's their excuse for their behaviour in their conquest and enslavement of other nations?

 

I don't deny the divinity of Christ is the cornerstone of Christianity. That doesn't make it true. Where is the proof of Jesus divinity? In Matthew/Luke's contradictory nativity stories or in the supposed resurrection?

 

Excuse? Who, in all of human history, needed an 'excuse!' to conquer, exploit, pillage, enslave, repel, or be overcome, wrt other humans?

You think only western europeans are human? Or justify their human aggression?

What is your excuse, to condemn human aggression? Or to deter it?

 

I was not arguing for the truth of the Divinity of Christ, but the historical orthodoxy of the belief. You were claiming it was 'added later', which is false.

True or false, regarding the mission of Jesus, is a belief.. with possible eternal consequence.

 

Furthermore.. those conquest brought civilizing effects to the conquered. It's undeniable that the Romans improved, overall, the nations they conquered, the same can be said about the British Empire.. in fact had Britain held onto their African colonies.. they'd be much better off today Can you say Zimbabwe and South Africa are better off now that they are run by native Africans? Our Western Culture is better in every faucet of improving the lives of natives world wide. I'd further say that Japan is were they are today because they embraced the principals of Western Culture.

 

You have to use a complete Bible version instead of a condensed Protestant Bible that does not contain all of the books. Try the Common English Bible (CEB) for ease of reading. The Douay-Rheims 1899 American Edition (DRA) and the New Revised Standard Version, Anglicised Catholic Edition (NRSVACE) are more stilted in word use.

I always include the version in parentheses when quoting passages. Bear in mind that some versions omit certain verses so you always have to refer to the version that is cited.

 

I was talking about Marks last chapter.

However the doctrine of the Trinity was still in flux till the end of the 4th century, The Council of Nicea had little to say about the Spirit, but the divinity of Jesus. Even the acceptance of the Nicene creed did not settle the matter as Arianism was still a problem. At the same time the Nicene council had not debated the divinity or purpose of the Spirit. The Nicene Creed used today is a revision of the original by Constantinople..

 

The Bible with its main theology is trying to convey a message for humans to be saved, in a sense. If you want to save a nest of bees, you don't demand the bees to fully understand human anatomy for them to be saved. The same applies to God's Trinity.

 

There is a "error" in the Bible, when describing the circumference of the "Molten Sea" , This has always been proof that the Bible is not "inerrant" . It even contains a spelling "error" that has been meticoulosly copied down thru the millennia! However...
The Hebrew alphabet is alphanumeric: each Hebrew letter also has a numerical value and can be used as a number.

"The q has a value of 100; the v has a value of 6; thus, the normal spelling would yield a numerical value of 106. The addition of the h, with a value of 5, increases the numerical value to 111. This indicates an adjustment of the ratio 111/106, or 31.41509433962 cubits. Assuming that a cubit was 1.5 ft.,3 this 15-foot-wide bowl would have had a circumference of 47.12388980385 feet.

This Hebrew "code" results in 47.12264150943 feet, or an error of less than 15 thousandths of an inch! (This error is 15 times better than the 22/7 estimate that we were accustomed to using in school!) How did they accomplish this? This accuracy would seem to vastly exceed the precision of their instrumentation. How would they know this? How was it encoded into the text?"

The "error" in the spelling of the Hebrew word gives a very precise value of Pi.
www.khouse.org/articles/1998/158/

I have concluded, after years of study, that the Bible is a supernatural book

 

The bottom line is, the Bible needs to be a human account of witnessing. You have applied a double standard here. You need to compare the Bible with other human documents as accounts of testimonies such as our history written 2000 years ago.

That being said, you can't complain that a mirror is not perfect simply because it can't talk to you as other humans can. A mirror is not designed to talk. It's designed to reflect images.

Now what are the design purposes of the Bible for you to comment on its perfectness? You can't because you can't possibly understand all the purposes of the Bible can serve in the case that it's a design from a God. You already made a huge mistake by not evaluating its perfectness by comparing it to other human testimonies, mainly due to the lack of knowledge about what human witnessing is.

Human witnessing is a way how humans in majority can possibly reach a truth (of any kind, including science). There's always a testimony in a form from a "middle man" standing between a truth and the majority of humans, and for them to get to such a truth through the testimony of this "middle man".

The "middle man" between a scientific truth and the majority of humans is our scientists.

The same "middle man" of our history is our historians who lived in the different timeline spots of humanity.

The same "middle man" standing between God and the majority of humans are the chosen prophets and apostles who act more or less like our historians.

In terms of the Bible's perfection, you can't rule out that the "middle man" must be humans and that you need to compare the Bible with other documents crafted by humans to the best of their capabilities. If your "perfectness" is to demand an unrealistic capability from humans, then it's you who are living out of reality. In a nutshell, God doesn't demand humans to be perfect in order to have a perfect Bible which 100% serves its design purposes (which you can't possibly know all).

 

So because someone invaded you 500 years ago that gives you an excuse to invade another nation today? Great. You tried that with Cuba. Failure. You and the UK tried it in Iraq. Failure. You and others have tried it in the Middle East. Failure. You tried to give them European democracy. Failure. Your Potus is trying to impose his will on North Korea. So far no one has. and neither will he. We Europeans are good at failure. Yes, we have been able to give them some things like education which has led the better off to a better standard of living. But how many times are western governments having to apologise for past behaviour..

You talk about humanity. What's the difference between you and the Yemeni widow whose child is dying of hunger? I don't need any excuse to deter or condemn human aggression. I have that widow and her child..

What did Jesus say? 'Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.' The US wants respect - it must show respect. The UK wants respect - it must show respect. After all the West believes itself to be leaders in most things.

 

Sorry chris but .. as stated previously .. it is just getting way to painful. When I logged on this morning I had 19 alerts - most requiring responses. To explain to someone why water is wet - which is essentially what is required in some of your responses - some of which I have already explained .. so this is akin to you asking why water is wet a second time - is getting to the point of pointlessness.

If you have a couple specific things you want clarified ... I will try to respond.

 

Didn't I claim ' the great commission' was added later I then posted referring to Marks Gospel. However, the 'Divinity' of Christ whatever the Gospels say, was debated by many sections of the early church for 300 years - until Nicea. Even then there was still some division..

 

Isn't this Kabbalah? And Kabbalah claims
The science of Kabbalah explains that there is no perceptible reality at all outside us. We influence nothing outside us because we perceive nothing outside us. Outside us, there is only constant Upper Light. The entire world is within us, and we feel that we are influenced from the outside because we are created this way.

Well well, we don't exist.in reality.

A short way into a study of Kabbalah I gave up. Anybody want the Book?

 

Isn't that like jumping overboard with a lifebelt, but knowing how to inflate it?

 

I'll give it a look but I know some of the books are just stories like that of Jonah, Esther, Daniel, in the Bible itself. The trouble with any modern translation is missing the original meaning. IE. What did Ben Sirach mean when he is translated as saying 'Jesus'. You have already said that ' Jesus' did not exist in English prior to 17th century. It has passed through 4 languages during translation from Hebrew to Greek to Latin, to Middle English to modern English. and even then it comes from a name 'Joshua'.used earlier. Who knows?

 

I'm sorry.. the point I was trying to make is that the Bible has been copied for millennium almost perfectly .. including what would be a "misspelling"

 

The *Catholic* Bible has some great short stories in the Apocyrpha. Read them when you get a chance. The books of Wisdom and Sirach contain what I consider to be good secular advice.

 

Are bees sentient beings They work on inbred instincts. They would act the same way - to protect their nest. - regardless of knowing the human anatomy.

There are 2 'theologies' in the Bible. Judaism and Christianity. Take away Judaism and the OT and there would be NO Christianity as we know it. Remove Christianity and the OT stands alone - complete in itself. Only Christianity interprets the OT 'prophecies' to refer to Jesus.
For 'Isaiah' to prophecy Jesus is sheer nonsense. 700 years in the future? Knowing that the 10 tribes would be gone and Judah would go into exile in Babylon. And then the chaotic period of the Hasmoneans and Maccabeans. The Hebrews had their own Messianic prophecies and expectations.
Now if the Bible is inspired there can't be 2 different interpretations. If it isn't God misled the Hebrews - after all they are his children. Hosea 11. etc.

So called 'Prophecies' are for the time. Only then do they become relevant. Most are a matter of astute understanding of the time by the 'prophet', history or written at the time.
Prophecy is a matter of seeing the probable result is certain actions are, or are not, taken.

I'm a prophet, and I guess many of you thinkers are. When someone comes along and tells you what they intend doing, and ask what you think, do you not listen and consider the matter. So often you can see the problems which they have missed. You point out these things. They ignore you - and you're proved right. Their plans fail.

Whoever the writers of Isaiah were could see the way the 2 nations were acting. Israel was allying itself with enemies of Assyria and to the writer there could only be one outcome. Eventual defeat.
Judah came under the control of,- though not occupied by,- Assyria, through paying tribute. The Babylonians took over from the Assyrians and controlled Judah under the same conditions. The Egyptians tried to overthrow the Babylonians, and were sent back to Egypt - defeated. When the Judeans signed an agreement with Egypt it was apparent to the 'prophet' what would happen. And it did. The Babylonians invaded Judea and took most captive. This served 2 purposes. It weakened Egypts power and closed the Judean gateway into Babylonian territory.

 

Alright, lets start off simple:

Yes and in Matt 7:21, Jesus says about people who do works that he never knew them! If salvation is all about "works, works, and more works" then why do the "many" who prophesy in His name and in His name drive out demons and in His name perform many miracles NOT get into heaven? What are these if not "works, works, and more works?"

 

I mean the Trinitarian formula inside the Great Commission.

 

This is a straw man fallacy. The subject was human aggression, throughout human history. For you to selectively condemn 'Christian!' nations of 'aggression, exploitation, and oppression!', based on some modern PC, righteous indignation, is revisionism at its worst, and a promotion of the false narrative, correlating all human evils to Christianity.

You think the UK, or the USA are 'Christian!' entities? That is absurd. There is not even a Christian majority anymore, in either nation. Progressivism is the dominant worldview, in almost all of western culture.

You can critique Trump, or American foreign policy, or British policy all you want. But to pick out 'bad!' things from any of them, and blame 'Christianity!', is just an illustration of the OP. it is a lie, or phony caricature, from a competing worldview. It is Progressivism smearing the opposition, for their ideological agenda.

 

I assume you are talking about 'Matthew''s, rather than Mark's, great commission. I repeat what I said about Marks. We know that 'Matthew' wrote his gospel around the last part of the first century. What we don't know is what 'Matthew' actually wrote. Parts of several Gospels appear to be added later. When the Great commision of 'Matthew' was added we don't know. If Matthew actually wrote a Hebrew version earlier, what was in that?
The early church had no universal doctrine of the Trinity for several centuries. It was one of the reasons 'heresies' were rife.. Even today there is no universal understanding of 'three-in-one'.