The case for Social Democracy.

Fair point.

 

They are the same thing in the end.

You can't become a little bit pregnant.

 

No one is asking you to. Social democracy has no interest in ending capitalism and transitioning to a socialist economy with worker ownership of business. Democratic socialism does have that goal. Look into it and you'll see.

The problem apparently is that you fell for the capitalist propaganda that socialism is government control of everything.

 

He also believes that regardless of this social democracies never survive and will lead to economic hellhole long term.

But the closest to pure capitalism was right here in the US, and it lead to the biggest economic collapse in history.

 

Are they? How do you know? And who benefits from social programs, exactly? Not the self-made millionaire who sends his kids to private schools. Not even the middle class working man, who puts in 10 hour days at the office to ensure no one in his family uses welfare dollars.

Look, I'm a socialist (shock!), and am 100% for Nationalised Health (which I've enjoyed all my adult life) and free Tertiary Education, but I absolutely am not for welfare for longer than a set period for the purposes of adjustment to some kind of set back or rough start.

 

Nope, I am arguing that it will turn into that regardless of their intentions.

 

I am a social democrat not a socialist. Big difference. Social democracy benefits society as a whole, with a more skilled educated workforce, workers with improved wages, improves their producitivity in the workplace, and these social programs can pave the way for many to become millionaires in the first place, and others to create new innovations which improve all of our lives, through guaranteed education.

 

Wrong. Population has alot to do with it. There is nothing democratic about taking from people without consent. That is called theft.

 

America's problems exist not because government is too small. The problems result from government being too big.

 

70 percent of Americans want Medicare for all, including 52 percent of Republicans. Most Americans want higher taxes on the rich. 62 percent want legalized marijuana. I think 80+ percent of Americans want the minimum wage to 15 bucks an hour. People in the US overwhelming support these policies.

 

This is not true. You pay in taxes what you get in universal education, healthcare, social security, roads/bridges, fireman, police, etc. so that taxation is theft is garbage. We are all under a social contract where taxation plays role in providing for the social contract. Population has nothing to do with why these countries implement these policies with success. As I stated earlier, because the US has more people, more people are to be provided, but more people are capable of funding these programs so it all balances out.

 

A personal and uninformed opinion. Nuf sed.

 

You're splitting hairs to create a distinction that for all intents and purposes doesn't matter. The end result is the same.

Taking the means of production to the public sector is Democratic Socialism (bad). Increasing government social justice through a Social Democracy (good). Wrong.

From the perspective of the business owners, that is like saying we are only taking 60% of your business instead of 100%, you should be happy. Social Democracies require massive injections of capital to fund the government social engineering. This is the forum of increased taxation, mostly on corporations and the rich (business owners). And to what extent? If the government imposes a social democracy in which 98% of business is taxed, technically its still privately held, or at least 2% of it, and we should be grateful or accepting?

Here is the issue that I have with your desire for social engineering, justice, whatever you want to call it. Its far too subjective and smells of a vote buying scheme. I am a white male business owner. I stand to only lose under your agenda. The role of our government is to provide equality for all and let the chips fall where they do. You desire to start to pick winners and losers, and all we will get is corruption, vote buying, and an absolute **** storm.

 

Education is guaranteed NOW (up to high school graduation), and vast numbers of Americans don't take advantage of it by even completing it properly, much less excelling. How are you oblivious to this fundamental issue? Opportunity abounds in America, yet you have millions of citizens (and non citizens) failing absolutely to take advantage of them. How do you think simply offering more of the same is going to change that? They literally don't want opportunity!

Nothing will be improved when NOT EVERYONE wants to improve things the same way. And those who only want improvement if they don't have to work for it, are not the people who matter. They're not fuelling such a shift, they are merely waiting for the benefits of it to fall upon them, as if by magic.

What you're missing is the unified desire to work together towards an end goal. WORK. TOGETHER. Not wait on welfare, divided.

 

Here is what people never talk about when discussing Norway.

Norway taxes 45% of their GDP

Corporate taxes range from 28-78%

Personal income tax is 55%

Norwegians pay an average income tax of $70K per year per household. When considering all other taxes, they pay over $100K

Norway simultaneously has one of the highest cost of livings in the world. Most people can only afford a small flat for their family, may have only 1 car per family, and live very modestly with little disposable income. They are essentially stuck under the weight of taxation and upward mobility is very rare.

Now, Norwegians are financing their lives to obtain quality of life items that are beyond their reach due to ridiculous tax rates.


In 6th place, barely behind Canada, is a country whose people just recently discovered the pleasures of loading up on debt: Norway. These folks nearly doubled their debt-to-GDP ratio from 2002, when it was barely over 50%, to Q2 2016, when it was 98.9%. Note how the debt levels have skyrocketed over the past few years. Where did the Northern prudence go? No one knows, but good riddance (via Trading Economics):


But hey! They get free education and healthcare... oh and pretty fountains.

Norwegians pay a very high rate for healthcare, just a couple thousand dollars per person less than the USA and more than double most other countries. Additionally, healthcare is NOT free. And wait times can be extensive, up to a half a year or more for treatment.

All in all, I think I will pass on this "great" social experiment.

 

Then why are they the amongst happiest people? Norway ranks higher than the US in social mobility. Cost of living is not that bad considering the fact that they have high wages and strong social safety.

 

We fundamentally see things differently. European vs US models are fundamentally different in that although EUR are capitalist they focus on improving the living standards of all the masses in a collectivist ideology, while the US is purely individual. Politics is about improving people's lives. Universal healthcare and education do just this. US had very high taxes in the 1950's and 1960's and although rich people did take deductibles off to pay lower, it was still a higher tax rate than it is today. Proof is in the pudding. Moderate taxes don't stifle business like they seem to.

 

Because they're all on the same damned page.

 

You get the politics your people want. If the majority of Americans were prepared to work together towards a common goal, you'd be Norway. When a large chunk of your citizenry expects free stuff, without contribution, you will never be Norway.

 

This makes no sense. It just doesn't. Anyway's going by your logic ,as I stated earlier, american people are progressive. 70% want Medicare for all. You best believe that if we institute it, unity will be strong.

 

Under the most private healthcare system in us history people worked and guessed what virtually half of seniors couldn't afford care, and large swaths of people were uninsured. This isn't about work. It's about acknowledging the negative externalities that certain policies have and how to fix them.

 

Socialism is found on a sliding scale. On one end is communism where the state owns the means of production and handles the "Proper" distribution of wealth among its citizens. Everyone is equal, but some are more equal than others. On the other end...hell, I don't know what is the other end. Do you?

But let's bring it home. Where is the United States on this ill defined continuum? The United States has an incredibly successful and well regulated capital system that can afford a "safety net" of whatever size it wants. There's a ton of stuff in the net: FDIC, Social Security, Medicare, unemployment insurance, and more including straight out welfare.

"Social Democracy" isn't quite right, nothing is simple in this place called America. America is more a "Social Republic." Does that make America a socialist country? We're on that sliding scale somewhere.

 

Yet that's not true, else you'd have 'medicare for all'. In my country, almost all of us wanted it, so we voted it in. We understood that our tax levy would pay for it, and were okay with that, so we voted it in. We understood that we all needed to keep working to pay for it, and we were okay with that, so we voted it in.

For a good long while, it has been working well. But we don't have an enormous welfare bill, because we have a smaller percentage of our populace taking a free ride - or at least, did have until recently. EVEN given our much more generous welfare ($400 of your US dollars per week). Because until fairly recently, when we started importing non-productive peoples who have zero respect for this nation and will take it for everything they can get without lifting a finger, we had a unified culture and work ethic.

 

Good stuff. You are demonstrating with a large scale real world example what I try to show with the US example of private cost sharing programs (voluntary socialized medicine).

Voluntary cooperative efforts can be good. Forced participation in socialism always leads to dark places. Excellent post.

 

I think our OP is for voluntary social democracy, but lacks appreciation of just how much volunteering is actually needed to get it done. It requires far more of us than just agreement. Like in any collective (voluntary collectives, especially), there is no free lunch for the able bodied adult. ALL must pull their weight.