The case for Social Democracy.

What stick?

 

I reject your micromanaging of people.

Sorry, but I believe in freedom. That makes me a liberal, and you a....

Progressive commie, I guess. You're no lefty. You're just like any other totalitarian that thinks you know how best to spend my money than I do.

Pfft!!!! You aren't necessary.

 

My fault to assume people's situation without prior knowledge. But I assume you are not struggling to pay these healthcare bills and costs. All I am saying is that people out there are struggling and it is not because of too much government, but too little. I've already posts data on how our healthcare here in the US was pre-govt intervention (prior to medicare/medicaid), and it left large swaths of people uninsured. If you find yourself unemployed here, life will be hard. If you can't pay for health insurance or any medical costs, you can die. Nobody is dying because they can't afford care in countries with Universal healthcare. The uninsured rate in those countries is 0, and medical bankruptcies are non-existent. The care is great and high quality. I care for people and don't like to see people struggle. That's why I support these policies. Because they help people greatly.

 

Yes, because you're a communist. Stop pretending that "progressive" means anything else.

Move to venezuela, and I hope you enjoy your diet of rabbit and bark.

You aren't desired here.

 

This is a joke. I know it's hard for you to grasp, but I am not a communist, but a social-democrat who believes in a capitalist market economy with social benefits. But when in doubt, communism! Stalinism! Marxism! These are nothing but smears and right wing buzz words, that don't debunk or rebuke anything that social-democrats espouse, or what social democracy is.

I won't move to Venezuela, but I am considering a move to Germany, France, UK, Switzerland, Italy, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, etc..

 

Don't let the door hit you on the backside!

 

The ideal system is anarchy. Ideals aren't realistic.

 

That's fine. I love how you didn't quote my entire posts which debunked you calling me a communist. I also love how you didn't respond or rebuke why universal healthcare and education is bad for our country. I seriously want a counter-argument. And btw, I know debate can be fierce, but I wish no ill will to you, and wouldn't say something like you don't belong here.

 

From childhood to now I’ve been on every data point on the stick. It varies from year to year.

As an adult I’ve gone one 10 year stretch with zero medical expenses.

Some years it’s been a couple hundred bucks.

I spent more on health care this year than living expenses. By a factor of two.

I’ve never had insurance. Someday I may if it ever becomes real insurance again and it’s legal to sell an attractive policy.

I also care about others in need. My community does as well. We help each other out. We don’t have the government force each other to give. We just do it. We are much more efficient.

Socialized medicine is available here. Very few take advantage of it. Because it’s voluntary. Progressives only want programs that mandate participation by all. I’ll never participate in any mandatory program. I didn’t in ACA and I won’t in Medicare for all or whatever comes next. I’ll die before I take from anyone against their will.

 

Ok good sir. I believe your story, and believe you to be a good person. But we fundamentally disagree, and that's fine. We can go on and on and there still won't be a consensus between us. Good luck with all.

 

What would you consider a counter argument? I can think of several. I have a feeling they were already presented and you just found them unconvincing.

so is the purpose of this debate to formulate a counter argument or to convince you that your position is wrong?

 

Cool. As I’ve said already, make a way for guys like me to opt out and I have no problem with anything you propose. I think that would be doable if everyone’s motives are pure. I’m suspicious there are those (unlike you apparently) who see this as a control opportunity instead of altruism.

I’m all for everyone’s freedom to do as they please as long as it doesn’t change the temperature of the water in my pool so to speak.

 

I haven't heard of any serious counter arguments on here as to why universal healthcare and education would be bad for our nation.

But please if you do, go ahead and post.

 

My brother, I will not support any 'medicare for all legislation' that bans supplemental private care. This is essential to the system. In fact I am not keen on the UK's or Sweden's completely public model. I like the French model the best, as it is a public universal funding of private entities, which reduces wait times, at the same time ensuring everyone and providing great care.

 

No not yet. You've requalified a counter argument as a serious counter argument. I need to know what you would consider a serious counter argument.

Is it something that would convince you or is it a counter-argument that isn't a joke to your position?

Since you did that double speak right ther it sends up red flags.

 

I am completely open to being convinced, but also open to rebuking points with which I don't agree with. I am not blinded by partisanship. If you have some arguments against universal healthcare by all means post them.

 

Serious counter argument would provide data on cost, quality of care, etc..

 

that wouldn't be a debate your agreement with something has no bearing on whether or not it's logical or correct.
I have no interest in convincing you of anything I doubt I could.

well since you're not really interested in debate you really only want to rebuke things that you disagree with I'm not going to post any arguments. That would be an exercise in futility.

 

So when arguments for why Universal Health Care would be bad for a country must include an alternative that provides low cost health care to people?

I reject your premise. an argument for why it's bad for the country does not need to also provide a better solution for any perceived problems on an issue you find important.

 

This is how debate go, there is back and forth between those on opposing sides rarely find consensus especially on issues like healthcare. Don't tell me that you wouldn't rebuke statistics, data, claims that I put out there. This is the nature of debate. But are you willing to be convinced on universal healthcare?

 

This data is essential. Ok so you don't believe it would be bad for our country, but believe another way of going about it is better? Ok then explain to me.

 

no that's how persuasion goes. Trying to convince somebody of something is persuasion not debate and persuasion is a rhetorical endeavor.

Whether or not you agree with something is completely irrelevant in a debate

I reject the premise that you were statistics have any bearing on what's good or bad for the country.

 

I am willing to be persuaded, but don't think you will be able to persuade me. Are you willing to be persuaded?

 

to your rhetorical position perhaps. I still reject the premise that an argument that this is bad for our country has to have a more or equal cost effective solution.

no I did not say there would be anything better you keep changing the premise.

You said that you wanted an argument showing that it's bad for the country not that somebody needed to come up with some better plan.

I reject that premise I've already stated that I don't understand why we have to keep covering the same ground.

 

I'm not interested in rhetoric.