The Cost of a Border Wall vs. the Cost of Illegal Immigration

Justification

The Fiscal Burden of Illegal Immigration on United States Taxpayers

https://fairus.org/issue/publicatio...n-illegal-immigration-united-states-taxpayers

 

From 0.12% to 0.38% ?? Come'on man. The election was in Nov 2016. The Fed's job is to control inflation.

 

Big and bold!! Wow!! But, that is all you've got, because you don't even know how to START a justification of this wall!

First of all, the wall has NOTHING TO DO with those here. It has to do with preventing the number of those here from rising. And, the number of undocumented aliens here hasn't risen for a DECADE!!!

So, your whole analysis is not applicable!

Beyond that, your site evaluated the work product of these people as being of ZERO value!!!

NOBODY agrees with that nonsense.


This is what I mean by needing a justification.

YOU and others are running on total BS.

 

There is no perceptible difference. You guys all sound alike. But I could be wrong. What do you disagree with in the posts of the other "r" guy ??

 

Their work product to the government is measured by the taxes paid. Please at least attempt to draw a control volume around the problem and analyze it correctly.

 

The Fed raised the rate during other periods as well. In the estimate of the Fed an increase to slow growth WAS required on more than one occasion during the Obama administration.

Between January 2010 and April 2010 the rate was raised.

The rate was raised during the first quarter of 2012.

The point here is that the Fed will moderate growth - even during periods where we're recovering from a serious recession.

 

Seriously???

You're going to suggest that the value of a worker is limited to the amount of tax they pay?

Can you cite a corporation that believes that?

And, don't forget the major flaw - that the site has nothing to do with anything the wall could possibly accomplish.

 

When did it ever go over 0.5% ?? The Fed acted to slow growth under the Obama administration ?? In what universe did that occur ??

 

It certainly is when performing an analysis on gov spending and revenue. You are seriously attempting to argue that ??

 

First of all, nonsense. When a worker contributes to a corporation that value also gets taxed by the government. So, the taxes paid directly by the employee is not the full value even just in terms of taxes. Plus, when citizens pay taxes (such as payroll taxes) they get the benefits of those taxes. Undocumented aliens are not nearly so able to do so. The result is that the contribution in taxes by undocumented aliens is more significant to the US as a whole.

Also, the especially cheap labor undocumented aliens provide adds value to this nation on its own, increasing our overall standard of living. Because of cheap labor, we get cheaper food, for example. The result is that we get to buy other stuff.

But FAR more importantly, the "analysis" as presented didn't even address the issue under question. It was a nonsense argument concerning the total number of undocumented aliens in the USA - which is not addressed by a wall.

 

What to do with those already here is not pertinent to stopping more from coming. Those already here cost tax payers billions and not stopping more from coming here will cost billions more. If that's not justification for the wall nothing will satisfy you.

"The total number of illegal immigrants (11 to 12 million) has held roughly constant in recent years because the number arriving has roughly balanced the number going home or getting legal status. This has created the mistaken impression that the problem is largely over. The most recent estimates from the Center for Migration Studies indicate that 1.7 million aliens joined the illegal population from 2009 to 2013 and Pew Research Center estimates indicate 1.5 million — 300,000 to 400,000 a year. The Center for Immigration Studies estimates an additional 790,000 joined the illegal population since 2013 for a total of 2.5 million new illegal immigrants since President Obama took office.

Among the findings:

• The most recent analyses from the Center for Migration Studies and the Pew Research Center indicate 1.5 to 1.7 million aliens joined the illegal population from 2009 to 2013 — either overstaying a temporary visa or sneaking into the country.
• Center for Immigration Studies analysis of Census Bureau data indicates that an additional 790,000 aliens joined the illegal population from the middle of 2013 to May of 2015, for a total of 2.5 million new illegal immigrants since President Obama took office in January of 2009 — 300,000 to 400,000 a year.
• The size of the illegal population has remained roughly constant since 2009 because these new arrivals were offset by those who returned to their home countries, those who received green cards, and natural mortality.1
• Had the United States not allowed so many new illegal immigrants to settle in the country since 2009, the total number of illegal immigrants would have fallen by 2.5 million. But the arrival of so many new illegal immigrants offset this attrition in the illegal population.
• Prior estimates from the Department of Homeland Security indicated that in the first six years of the Bush administration some 500,000 to 600,000 aliens joined the illegal immigrant population each year.2
• While the level of new illegal immigration is lower than a decade ago, the enormous ongoing scale of illegal immigration is a clear indication that the United States has not come close to controlling it.
• Prior research indicates that roughly half a million illegal immigrants return home on their own each year, are deported, die, or get permanent residence. Those who get legal status each year are not beneficiaries of the president's administrative amnesty known as DACA — which does not give permanent residence, but does provide Social Security numbers, work authorization, and identity documents. Rather it has been long-standing policy to allow those who violate immigration laws to still get green cards (permanent residency) if they qualify in one of the legal immigration categories such as marrying a U.S. citizen.3

https://cis.org/Report/25-Million-Join-Illegal-Population-under-Obama

 

The job would be done by a US citizen who would also pay payroll and income taxes.

And there we go again with the argument that illegal immigration is justified by the low wages with no consideration to the welfare of actual US citizens. It’s amazing - low wages for illegals working for US companies are OK in the US but not OK in other countries where employees work for US companies ?? How does that work ??

Here is the plan. Secure the border and then address those here illegally. If the border is not secure and a plan for legal status becomes likely the border will be overrun by those attempting to enter illegally.

 

You post would be more believable if you cited some impartial studies. The two sources you cited both have political axes to grind and are renowned for their slanted posts.

 

The Center for Immigration studies does not do "analyses" in the classic sense of the word. It's an anti-immigrant website that slants information to fit the ideology of the people who run the cite. This post would carry more weight with people who value facts and true analysis if it cited studies from impartial sources.

 

OK, you know some of the problem with your previous cost based justification. And, I'll not quibble about the cases where this analysis doesn't agree with other sources, such as Pew Research.

And, of course we still would need analysis of methods of entry (since nearly half arrive by means other than running the southern border), methods of slowing entry (e-verify, visa changes, cost effective border changes), the related costs and benefits, the solution for those here already (including, but not limited to DACA), the need for cheap labor that we appear to lack (in agriculture, at least), etc.

So, you have a foundation that is reasonable if not perfect as a starting point.

Good progress.


I think the real problem with how immigration is being addressed is that it is being done in tiny pieces. I don't see any indication that we're headed toward a consistent, rational and comprehensive solution.

I'd far prefer seeing a more total solution, such as the solution created by bipartisan committee in our Senate. The Senate passed that bill and the House would have passed it had Boehner not blocked it. That solution DID have money for wall improvement. More importantly (I think) the comprehensive nature of the bill allowed for tradeoffs to be made to ensure effective compromises to ensure that the various constituencies are kept whole.

I see that bipartisan Senate solution as superior to anything being proposed today, perhaps primarily because it is a comprehensive solution rather than a collection of actions that don't even necessarily fit together and certainly do NOT cover the problem.

 

Not according to the Chamber of Commerce. They say that cheap disposable labor is an absolute requirement.

But, you need to remember that I've consistently advocated e-verify and ending the supply of undocumented labor. It's just that I want to use free market capitalism to do that, rather than basically declaring war on the undocumented population.

We already control the borders within a range that absolutely does NOT warrant doing nothing on the other parts of this issue.

Your "do nothing" direction for the other issues is irresponsible.

 

I don’t disagree with them. They completely refuted your claims, just like I did.

 

What mistakes have been made.

 

Where does the CC state that ??

What “do nothing” direction is that ??

To state that the border is sufficiently secure is absurd.

To ignore the rule of law is irresponsible.

 

So my comments apply equally.

 

It has really hurt the construction field, their american workers and even some factory worker, and meat packing. Americans have not picked fruit and such since ww2. We have a system in place to bring in migrant temporary farm workers. If this is not being used, one has to wonder why not?

My son in law a sub contractor could not big as low as contractors who used illegal alien labor. So he could not compete. This was during the housing madness preceding the burst of that bubble. So, reality may not be what some on the democrat side thinks it is. Illegal alien labor hurts working americans. And it is simple common sense that this would hurt american workers. It is what I have seen and experienced as reality.

 

Look up the CofC.

You called for "do nothing" until more wall is built - even before there is any justification for more wall.

I did not say the border was "sufficiently secure". I said we don't have a justification for the wall. Those aren't the same thing. The data being presented so far suggest that there are still people entering and leaving, in about equal numbers. But, it does not say how they are entering.

The last 20 years of history indicates nearly half enter without running the border. Also, it indicates that the presence of jobs is the major motivator. It does NOT say that tens of billions of dollars on the wall is a cost effective direction - or even that we need such a huge wall.

 

You misread my post. I didn't write that mistakes have been made. I wrote that you cited sources well known to be biased against immigration. I think if you consulted impartial studies, some show that illegal immigration is a net loss for the US economy and other show that it's a net gain. Impartial social scientists admit that they don't completely understand the economic impact of illegal immigration. Those that are pushing an ideology cherry pick the data to try to convince others that their opinions are correct. As to legal immigration, it is unquestionably good for the USA.

 

I think everyone agrees with what you're saying here.

I've never met someone who thought an open borders policy was legit.

And, the fully bipartisan bill that passed the Senate during Obama's term would have ended this situation we have with cheap discardable labor.

 

That’s putting the welfare of illegals above US citizens.