the Wisdom and favorite verses of the Holy Bible

If you come to deride the Bible... leave.
We will stay on topic.

in the beginning was the Word, and the Work was with God, and the Word was God.. John 1:1

 

I'm not here to deride the Bible but to claim it wasn't written by God.

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It is open to ALL members to discuss ANY aspect of ANY religion.

It is NOT a place to attack, bait or abuse religious (or non-religious) people on the basis of their beliefs or opinions.


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Just as an aside prior to giving my faves - the verse you cited contains a mistranslation - an intentional one at that. The actual word the author of John used was "Logos". Now - this word can mean "word" but in a religious context it means the emissary between God and Man.

Now to my favorites. Proverbs - better to sleep on the roof than in the same house with a nagging wife.

Proverbs 6:24 - Better to sleep with a Prostitute than with another mans wife - a prostitute costs the price of a loaf of bread where adultery will cost you your life.

and from the NT - Matt 7:12 - The Golden Rule - "Do unto others as you would have done to you - this sums up the Law and the Prophets"

 

From Matthew 25:

41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.’ 44Then they also will answer, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?’ 45Then he will answer them, saying, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

 

I'm beginning to believe that the golden rule is also absent the full extent of meaning.

The thing about the golden rule is that one can say: "Well, I would not expect help if I did that" or "I didn't actually see that guy, so how can I be held responsible?" or "He was convicted of a crime and is now removed from society and is thus outside my concern".

But, the Matthew 25 quote above cranks it up.

It states one will be damned to hell for not contributing to the welfare of those we know have need, no matter how they got there, no matter whether WE would ever be in that position. It doesn't even allow for the excuse that we didn't "see" those in need. We don't see those in hospitals or in prison - yet ignoring them doesn't save one from Matthews 25.

 

Mark 7:15
There is nothing from without a man, that entering into him can defile him: but the things which come out of him, those are they that defile the man.

Luke 21:19
In your patience possess ye your souls.

2 Cor 3:6
[God] also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

 

The first thing to note is that there is a reason why this rule shows up in Hamurrabi's law Code - is cited by Buddha - Confucius - even Muhammad and obviously Jesus.

We shouldn't leave out Rabbi Hillil - A most famous and respected aged man around the time of Jesus - who said in response to a question in relation to the Torah - "don't do to others what you would not have done to you - the rest is just commentary" - Jesus had mentors as well

The rule is the basis - naturally springs out of - for the secular justification for authority by the enlightenment thinkers - in particular the social contract. That if two men make an agreement - "I won't kill you and your family if you don't kill me or mine" one then has a moral obligation to respect your side of the bargain.

In other words - If you want the other to keep the bargain - then one has a moral obligation to keep your end. If you don't want the other to kill you and your family - then don't do this to him and his family.

One can say - If I fall and can not get up - I would not expect help - but that one is just lying to themselves.

The rule however is not applicable to every situation - but - your examples are not good. If you did not see something how could you be responsible ? - don't get how this applies. I the Crime - outside my concern is definitely covered.

As per the Rule of Law - the punishment should fit the crime. If you don't want to be punished harshly for a crime - then do not support this happening to others.

Sharia Law - separation of Church and state - If you don't want others forcing their religious beliefs on you through physical violence ( Law) - then do not do (or support) this happening to others.

Abortion - Since the best argument the anti side can get to is "Experts Disagree" = "we don't know" "we don't know otherwise" It is an anathema in law to make law on this basis.

If one does support make law on this basis "we don't know otherwise" - I suggest we make a law that has Big Bob the Sodomizer pay a visit to these folks once a week - on the basis that "we don't know this will not help this person".

After all - they support one person having to pass a large object through a small orifice - on "we don't know otherwise" they they should agree in the above case. If not - don't do to others what you don't want done to you.

I suggest that Big Bob would do this person much good.... very quickly they would realize how stupid it is to make law on the basis of "we don't know otherwise".

I think the rule is much deeper than you give credit.

 

Matthew 25 clearly goes beyond our interpretation of the golden rule.

Unlike the golden rule, Matthew 25 allows for NO excuse for not caring for others in our midst.

Jesus was quite clear in Matthew 25. He stated that we ARE responsible for finding and caring, even when the person is in a hospital or a jail where we don't see them.

As a practical application, do you think the verses I quoted could possibly apply to visitation of incarcerated children?

No, in Matthew 25 Jesus did not say that the person in prison should not be in prison.

He said that we must visit them and care for them.

Once again, Matthew 25 doesn't dispute the need for law, methods of carrying it out or whether prisons are justified.

And, it doesn't address abortion.

 

The alien who resides with you shall be to you as the citizen among you; you shall love the alien as yourself, for you were aliens in the land of Egypt: I am the Lord your God.
Leviticus 19:34

You shall allot it as an inheritance for yourselves and for the aliens who reside among you and have begotten children among you. They shall be to you as citizens of Israel; with you they shall be allotted an inheritance among the tribes of Israel.
Ezekiel 47:22

 

I do not share your uber literalist interpretation of Matt 25 -- although I agree that it goes beyond the Golden Rule - although not by much.

One thing I think we can both agree on is that without a doubt this passage contradicts sola fide "salvation by faith alone" - which was the point of the conversation with Robert.

Not sure why you are stating Matt 25 does not address abortion or law when I stated that it was the Golden Rule that addresses these things.

Nor do I agree that we have to spend every waking moment actively seeking out the sick and the poor like Mother Theresa but, when opportunity presents itself we should try to act. More important IMO - is to not actively work against these principles .. by supporting bad law - and there is plenty - and cruel practices ... such as those we find in our prison system. Laws and practices supported by the religious right in many instances.

As to the "how much is enough" - Jesus addresses this "more righteous than the Pharisees and givers of the Law. This is not a high bar as Jesus hated them.

Also when the fellow comes to Jesus and asks what he must do - Jesus responds .. you know the 10 commands - don't kill, steal and so on. When the fellow presses further Jesus basically says - If you want to be perfect go sell everything and follow me - be mother Theresa basically.

Perfection however is not something that is required.

 

Matthew 25 does raise questions about sola fide.

In my (atheist) view, one could view acceptance of the sacrifice of Jesus as a first principle. That is, without that step "works" are not enough.

In other words, perhaps acceptance of Jesus is an absolute requirement, but not totally sufficient.

This is a general problem - not just a Matthew 25 problem. It's important to think about what could possibly cause rejection by God of someone who has truthfully had a conversion.

Does a one time conversion really mean that the individual can never be rejected by God?

The Catholic Church believes someone may be excommunicated - so even MANKIND may reject a conversion. Surely God could do so as well.

It seems reasonable to believe that Matthew 25 as proposing grounds for GOD'S decision concerning those who have accepted Jesus as their savior, but who have made grave mistakes as described in that chapter.

 

One can view things in many ways - and people do. The question I have been wrestling with for 4 decades or more is "what did Jesus say/think"

Matt 5-7 - Sermon on the Mount - is the main place where Jesus addresses this issue - and he does so at length - as opposed to a single vague passage that could have numerous interpretations - like the one in John - that says the only way to get to the father is through Jesus.

One could interpret this as meaning - "you must believe in Jesus" or - again hearkening back to Matt 25 - where Jesus is depicted as Judge = you much get past Jesus... and the criteria to get past Jesus is works going by Matt 25.

But getting back to the Sermon on the mount. It opens with - "Blessed are the poor in spirit - for theirs is the kingdom of heaven"
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

All of a sudden - you being an atheist - your chances look very good

Jesus then goes on to talk about "The Will of the Father" -
13 “You are the salt of the earth. But if the salt loses its saltiness, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled underfoot.

14 “You are the light of the world. A town built on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Neither do people light a lamp and put it under a bowl. Instead they put it on its stand, and it gives light to everyone in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your Father in heaven.

Obviously Jesus is talking about works - "good deeds"

Then he talks about following the 10 commands.

19 Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.

The interesting thing about above is the concept of severity of sin.

Jesus then goes not to talk specifically about certain commands - Murder, Adultery, Not swearing Oaths to God. "works, works, works"

Jesus talks about forgiveness - reciting the Lord's prayer - forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us.

Then saying
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins.

The "Golden Rule" bell should now be ringing in your head. Jesus then restates this rule a number of different ways.

Love Neighbor as self
Judge not

“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2 For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you.

3 “Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother’s eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4 How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5 You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.

I normally throw the "Let ye who is without sin cast the first rock" in the restatements of the Golden Rule but that from John if memory serves.

Jesus then starts to sum up his sermon - 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

He could have just ended it right there .. but - he has a few more things to say - and this is where it gets interesting.

So after talking at length about the "Will of the Father - about works works works, which includes following the Golden Rule - and not a thing about "faith" as being a requirement.. Jesus then talks about the deceivers - aka "televangelists" and religious loud mouths.


15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

By their "works" you will recognize.

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’

Sorry to the Tim Tebow's of the world but ... twirling around calling "Jesus Jesus" - does not cut it. One must do the will of the Father - or at least make some attempt = Don't kill, Don't screw other mens wives, and follow the Golden Rule.

He then reasserts this - for those that did not get it the first two times.

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. 26 But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. 27 The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

So it is not the hearing of the teachings of Jesus (Gods Word/Will) or "having faith" - but the doing of Gods will.

 

No, it's not just "doing of God's will". I think sola fida is more likely.

But, you haven't addressed the issue of what reasons God may give for rejecting an individual who has at some time accepted Jesus as his/her savior.

Again, the Catholic Church believes such events CAN happen.

And, Matthew 25 gives examples of that, too - things one may do and thus be rejected by God.

 

Sola Fide is Salvation by faith alone - good deeds, bad deeds count for zero. "Just have faith" and you get through the pearly gates.

The question here is "what is meant by faith" -- faith in what ? The Sola answer is "just believe that Jesus came as a sacrifice for your sins" and all will be well.

Kill as many people as you like - be the nastiest person imaginable - but all you have to do is just "believe" that all this is washed away by the sacrifice.

OK - Got it ... That however is not what the sermon says. Perhaps it is not all on works either but, you and I have a different perspective on what works are - and the relative significance.

 

One of my favorites:

Haven't I told you, be strong and courageous: do not be afraid. Do not be discouraged. For the Lord your God is with you where ever you go.
Can't remember verse but it is in Joshua.


A good wisdom builder is :

Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces. Matthew 7:6

 

Well opinions vary but here are a few worth mention.

“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.”

You are destroyed, Israel. . . . The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open." (

"See, the day of the Lord is coming — a cruel day, with wrath and fierce anger. . . . I will put an end to the arrogance of the haughty. . . . Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses will be looted and their wives violated."

"And Jephthah made a vow to the Lord: 'If you give the Ammonites into my hands, whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord's, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering.' . . . When Jephthah returned to his home in Mizpah, who should come out to meet him but his daughter, dancing to the sound of timbrels! . . . After the two months, she returned to her father, and he did to her as he had vowed."

"And if ye will not for all this hearken unto me, but walk contrary unto me; Then I will walk contrary unto you also in fury; and I, even I, will chastise you seven times for your sins. And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat."

'Why have these things come upon me?' it is for the greatness of your iniquity that your skirts are lifted up, and you are violated . . . because you have forgotten me and trusted in lies. I myself will lift up your skirts over your face, and your shame will be seen."

"O daughter Babylon, you devastator! Happy shall they be who pay you back what you have done to us!
shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"

No one whose testicles are crushed or whose penis is cut off shall be admitted to the assembly of the LORD.

Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known man intimately.
But all the girls who have not known man intimately, spare for yourselves.

If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them: Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place; And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard. And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die.

 

"Your male and females slaves are to come from the nations around you." Leviticus 25 44

 

Word.. capitalized seems to mean the same as logos.. and we are told God = Word.

 

Why don’t you go to a religious board ?

 

Good works follow the faith in God. Neither faith nor good works is enough on it's own, tho' I believe those that have faith will naturally do good works.

 

I studying John again.. it seems to fill in some of the questions left by the other Gospels and also is much more spiritual.

 

Note: Jesus wrought a new covenant, some of what is written in the Old Testament is rendere null and void by the New Covenant. (good example... animal sacrifice is no longer necessary to carry away our sins)

 

"Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces."

 

The question here is not what the modern reader thinks - the question is what the author thought.

Beliefs about the God were different in the first century. One of the ideas was that the Godhead consisted of innumerable emanations.

Jesus was a manifestation of one of these emanations .. and in this respect Jesus was God. Jesus was an emanation from directly from the Godhead. This is how the Logos concept was understood by the author.

Jesus was then a conduit between man and God - an intermediary of sorts - who spoke Gods word directly through the holy spirit.

So while Jesus was viewed as an emanation from the Godhead .. Jesus himself was not viewed as "God - God the Father". Not by the early Church Fathers, not by the disciples - and not by Jesus. The "Jesus is God"- God the Father - concept did not exist until around 200 AD- and at the time was viewed as heresy. The Modern Trinity Doctrine being codified came about around 325 AD for political reasons by Emperor Constantine.

Prior to this - most Christian beliefs were either Arian or had some Arian influence - and these beliefs continued within major sects of Christianity for hundreds of years after Constantine.

 

This is part of what James argues in James 2. What one should also keep in mind that "Good Works" includes not doing bad things. There are many that give to charity and help the poor but then turn around and do very nasty things.

Having "Faith"is no guarantee that the person will do good things and avoid bad things. This is not a "false faith" either. These people genuinely have faith .. faith that is very strong - to the point that some of them even believe that their bad deeds are the will of God.

The reason for this is because 1) the book on which this faith is based has a huge number of contradictions - one can essentially find justification for anything .. 2) then you have man made up things that are claimed to be based on that book - "dogma" and people believe this dogma.

What you then end up with is people who are very strong in faith - doing really nasty things.

Take "Pizza Guy" as an example - the fellow who refused to deliver Pizza to a wedding because the couple was Gay. I do not want to get into whether or not this action was good, bad or otherwise. What I want to address is the fellows justification for his action - a justification which was based in "Faith".

The fellow used Levitical Law as part of his justification - and there are many people of genuine faith that do this. This fellow for example:

The video is 12 minutes but just start at the 2 min mark and go to 3 min.

This is a person of very strong faith. This person however is doing very bad things. So while good things can arise from faith - a whole lot of bad things can arise as well.

Do not get caught up in the "gay issue" here - I only used this as an illustration on how people can make their "faith" mean pretty much anything ... including justifying killing of babies -children and mass genocide.