This is what I mean when I say...

That is your definition and completely subjective. Most theists would ascribe many more aspects to their God than just "it created the universe." Even "created the universe" is vague.

Strawman.

You can ask that question. I asked a different one.

You can't know. Nor can God. Which is why there is no God.

 

If you want to blindly guess that there are no gods...do so.

Nothing wrong with it.

I prefer not to.

Nothing wrong with that either. In fact, I see it as more ethical.

 

I guess so. You don't know what definitions of words mean. I thing that has been the problem for you this whole time.

So maybe you are not insecure. Just unknowledgeble?

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More ethical than what? And how? And why?

 

Do you mean it's more ethical because some powerful being is watching what you do and reserving punishment for when you violate some stricture or other?

 

What definitions do you suppose I do not know?

I do know, for instance, that you meant "think" in that last sentence.

I am not insecure...and I am reasonably knowledgeable.

Perhaps you just enjoy trying to be insulting rather than discussing the topic.

Than blindly guessing.

By not blindly guessing.

Because blindly guessing is silly on this issue.

 

What is that supposed to mean?

If you want to blindly guess there is a god watching what you do...do it.

If you want to blindly guess that there are no gods...do it.

Both are childish.

It definitely is more ethical to just acknowledge you do not know...and to not make a blind guess on the matter.

 

Then how is it that you don't see all those definitions stating the same thing?
A disbelief, or lack of belief in a god.

Nothing in any of the definitions have anything to do with blindly guessing. None.

 

When you have invested so much in hating on atheists, it becomes difficult to change the habit even when you have been shown to be wrong by links that you made yourself. Such is the Folly of Agnosticism (Foag as I will now call it).

 

Because they don't.

If you cannot see that...you probably would not understand the explanation.

If you cannot see the difference...I doubt you will understand the explanation.

 

Some questions for you Frank.

How does your state of disbelief affect your behaviour? Since you neither believe nor disbelieve in a god or gods how does this change what you do?

Do you worship or not worship? Do you follow a moral code based on the existence of God or does your moral code exist independently of the possibility of the existence of God?

 

You're right. The rest of the world is wrong.

 

It is essentially the same coin as the theist would argue when they equivocate justified belief with faith. Foag.

 

Shoot. (Literally, please!)

I do not do any "believing"...and I make no guesses about whether or not there are gods.

I cannot say that anything about my behavior is impacted in any way by the question of whether or not gods exist.

In answer to your next question I mention that I was raised a Catholic. My behavior then was, as best I could manage it, moral and ethical. My behavior now that I have broken from any theistic notions...is not appreciably different.

I do not worship in any form.

I used to. I was raised a Catholic. People raised Catholic always do a lot of worshiping at one point or another.

As an adjunct to the question: While I do not make guesses about whether gods exist or not...I do seem to make guesses about this idea that gods need or want "worship"...and my guess is that any gods that exist are not interested in human worship. Just a blind guess, of course.

I follow a moral code that I feel comfortable with...which seems to be based on one element of some religious thought...namely, I try to treat others as I would have them treat me...and try not to treat others as I would not want them treating me.

The notion of a god to set up a moral code is an absurdity to me. I am friends with several very strong atheists whom I see as very, very much more moral and ethical than some practicing Christians I know.

 

If you are going to claim that it is "more ethical" then you should at least provide your reasoning for those ethics. Ethics are a matter of reason, not childish blind guessing.

 

No.

YOU are wrong.

There is a huge, significant difference between some of those definitions.

YOU stated:

They do not state the same thing.

I give one attempt at this...but if you cannot see it without help, chances are you are unwilling to see it.

Some of those "definitions" speak of "a lack of belief in a God or gods."

Others speak of "a belief that God does not exist."

Those are significantly different things.

One indicates a lack of "belief"...the other indicates having a "belief."

That difference is the essential of the difference between so-called strong atheists and so-called weak atheists.

 

Explain those differences.

 

If you are not...we have no issue.

So you are NOT saying "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one."

Like I say...then we have no issue.

I do not understand the question.

I'm sure that means something. I'd love to figure out what it is...but I am not going to spend the time to do so. If you want to be more clear...give it a shot.

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One says, "I have no belief."

The other says, "I have a belief."

If you need the difference explained...the explanation won't mean anything to you.

 

You still haven't even defined God. It's like you demanding to know whether I believe that there are gabbleblotchets. Unless you tell me what is a gabbleblotchet, there can be no answer.

You claim it's more ethical to say "I don't know." Ethics is based upon reason. What is your reasoning?

 

I HAVE define a god.

Deal with that one.

In the meantime, if you are not saying "there are no gods" or "it is more likely that there are no gods than that there is at least one"...we have no issue.

Stop trying to make one...unless you ARE saying one of those things.

And where did this "demand" crap come from? I haven't "demanded" anything. Do you just make stuff up as you go along?

With regard to the question, "Do gods exist or not?"...the answer "I do not know" IS, in my opinion, more ethical than either "Yes" or "No."

Really? Simply because you just decided that?

Substantiation, please. Or is that something you just made up?

Ethics, as I understand it, is adherence to moral principle.

Now..."moral principle" may be different from person to person...but my comment has to do with my opinion...and I value honesty.

The HONEST answer to "Do gods exist or not?" is...I DO NOT KNOW.

If your moral principles figure a blind guess one way or the other to be more ethical...go for it.

 

What factors, if any, contribute too your "blind guess" that a god or gods do not need or want worship?

 

I flipped a coin!

Heads--they care; tails--they don't.

It came up tails.

 

I feel like you are being flippant. Badum-tish!

So this is a decision you made once and you have consistently stuck to it?

 

You waved you hand at the idea of a creator of the universe and called that God.

Very well, there may be such a being. I, however, would not refer to that being as God just because he/she/it created what we know as the universe.

Ok. You aren't going to provide a reason. What answer would be unethical?

Ethics:

n.
The study of principles relating to right and wrong conduct.
n.
Morality.
n.
The standards that govern the conduct of a person, especially a member of a profession.

I'm not even sure what morality has to do with it.

 

I am not being flippant.

On the matter of whether gods exist or not...I have clearly said that I do not see enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful guess...so I don't.

At times, because of the tone of the conversation, I will adjust that...and make a GUESS...based on a coin toss.

I have done that several dozens times during the two decades I have been discussing this issue, and its ancillary issues, on the Internet.

In this instance, I did it for the "desire to be worshiped" issue.

Using the coin toss to make a blind guess about something that requires a blind guess?

Yup.