Time To Scrap Affirmative Action?

If it doesn't affect large numbers nationwide, why bother with it? Is it just another "feel good" policy?

 

At some point it has to be abandoned. Not sure we're there yet, but to not stop affirmative action is the same as saying that blacks or women or whoever are inferior to the rest of the people. I think it should be scrapped in favor of some kind of SES type thing. Under affirmative action, Obama's girls would have an advantage due to race to get into college over the little white boy in the trailer park living with his grandma on their social security checks.

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Of course.

 

Is everybody qualified to go through graduate school?

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Hmm, we had all of those before affirmative action.

 

Pretty much in agreement with everything you said.

 

It only says that to people with a racist bent, maybe.

What it says to fair people is that there is a significant element of racism in this country (just look at the posts and thread in this forum) that discriminates against minorities, and affirmative action helps to offset that racism.

 

Robert Byrd disagrees........

 

I disagree. The implication is that the minority groups need help to succeed. Affirmative action based on race has to end if racism is to be ended. As I suggested, which for some reason you ignore, I think a better solution would be to help the economically disadvantaged. Why should Michael Jordan's kids get race based preferences, over the Appalachian kid who has three teeth among his parents and grandparents? That would be much more just, IMHO, and wouldn't keep perpetuating the myth that minorities are inferior.

 

It is fair to say they need help to succeed. In a country with a significant amount of racism that discriminates against them, the do need help to succeed.

That is not the same as saying they are inferior.

Racism has to end if affirmative action is to be ended.

And from reading posts and threads in forums such as this one, where people can expressive their views with relative anonymity, we have a long, long way to go to get to that point.

I wouldn't have a problem with affirmative action based on income need as opposed to strictly race. That would probably address the same problem from a race neutral perspective.

 

AA only reaffirms racism. For example, if a minority gets a job, but has trouble performing, whats the first thing to go through people's minds? How did that person get the job in the first place. Some will then obviously think about AA, which then makes it harder for that minority to be taken seriously, reducing trust from his peers. If AA never existed, then who would ever think that his RACE got him the job, not his abilities?

AA is racist. If one is given a job over someone else because a quota is needed or diversity in the workplace is being promoted, thats the pre definition of racism.

 

AA is not racist. It is not designed to discriminate based on negative prejudices or stereotypes about a race.

But I agree that implication many take is that a black person achieved his accomplishments because of AA, an implication that a racist person is much more likely to make. That is the best argument against it, IMO.

 

And a race neutral perspective would be a step towards ending racism. Using the racism of affirmative action to correct the racism of the past just keeps perpetuating racism.

 

I don't see the rational basis behind your assertion. Racism existed long before AA and there is no reason at all to believe that I can imagine to think racisim will end or even decrease when AA is eliminated.

All that will happen is that the effects of racism will be left uncountered.

 

While Affirmative Action doesn't directly affect large numbers its educational value does. It highlighrs the injustices to women and minorities that is extensive in our society related to equality of opportunity. While limited to government contractors and subcontractors many other enterprise owners have also adopted employment policies that are non-discriminatory and those enterprises have profited from it.

Of course there is the right-wing racist backlash we can all see but that can be exposed and hopefully even that benefits our society in the long run. By exposing the invidious and ignorant bigoted racist prejudice perhaps some will see their own racial prejudice and overcome it. The problem of inequality of opportunity created by racial prejudice needs to be exposed and its time for Americans realize that this is a problem only we, the American People, can overcome because individual recial prejudice is our problem and not the government's. Our government is doing what little it can to try and mitigate a problem that prejudice by individuals creates but correcting the problem will always fall on our shoulders and not on the shoulders of government.

Our government cannot make the American Dream of Equality for ALL People become a reality. That is our responsibility as the People of America. When skin color and gender no longer affect the equality of opportunity in America then Affirmative Action will not be necessary but until that day comes Affirmative Action costs us virtually nothing, doesn't create reverse discrimination, benefits enterprises far beyond just those that are directly affected by it, and has had a positive impact for America far beyond the limited scope of the program itself.

We can make Affirmative Action moot by simply ending our individual prejudices that denies equality of opportunity.

 

The only person that believes a black man succeeds because of Affirmative Action is the racist.

For example a qualified black man could be hired because of the positive actions of enterprise to establish policies that ensure non-discriminatory hiring practices based upon Affirmative Action guidelines. A "white man" wasn't denied a job but instead a qualified black man was hired. This is, of course, something the white racists don't want to happen because it removes the racist advantage for "white males" in employment. But the black man has merely obtained the job by being hired and they still have to perform to succeed. They weren't handed a "free ride" but instead they have to typically work harder than their "white" co-worker to get ahead because they're still going to face individual racial prejudice every day at work.

The individual racial prejudice against the black employee doesn't end at the front door of the enterprise but is inside the enterprise as well. The racial prejudice and oppression is subtle but it is still there and the challenges for the newly hired black man are just beginning when they get a job they're qualified for. Not even corporate policies designed to end racial discrimination can stop the invidious racial discrimination in the work place. The challenge has just begun for the black worker once they get the job and their performance has to be superior to their white co-workers just to stay even with them in their employment.

That is something the racists ignore. Affirmative Action may provide a qualified black man with equality of opportunity on one day in one instance but the invidious racial prejudice didn't magically disappear. It will be there the following day, and the day after that, and every day that follows. Simply imagine the negative repercussions against a black man that is hired where the racist white co-workers assume it was due to Affirmative Action where a "white man" was denied employment.

As has been documented subtle racial prejudice generally results in the hiring manager believing the "white" applicant was better than the "black" applicant even when all things except race are equal. That same manager is going to believe that a lesser qualified person was hired even though the black applicant might have been more qualified based upon education and experience. That hiring manager is also responsible for wage increases and promotions and the challenge for the black worker is that they have to be significantly superior to their "white" co-workers to overcome the racial prejudice of the manager just to "stay even" with their white co-workers in wage increases and promotional opportunities.

No, the black man doesn't succeed because of Affirmative Action. They succeed because they have worked harder to be better than their white co-workers even if Affirmative Action provided them equality of opportunity once in their lifetime because the racial discrimination against them is never-ending in America today.

 

/thread

 

Great. Let me know when that happens. Then we can talk about not needing AA.

 

"At some point it has to be abandoned. Not sure we're there yet..."

Taxcutter says:
It's been a half century. Nearly three generations. Just how long will it take to "get there?" What criteria would indicate that we've "gotten there?"


"Without it, America would have no black or female medical doctors, scientists, etc. America would have no black or female military officers."

Taxcutter says:
Nonsense. Prior to 1961 America had black doctors, scientists and military officers. There were female military and naval officers galore. That the fem,ale officers were not line officers was a conscious decision of Congress. Congress is not subject to Affirmative Action.


"Is everybody qualified to go through graduate school?"

Taxcutter says:
Does everyone want to go to graduate school? Given the high unemployment of graduate school graduates, the value of grad school is in question.

 

"...limited to government contractors and subcontractors..."

Taxcutter says:
Given the fact that federal, state, and local government is consuming 50% of the economy, this becomes a substantial subset of all jobs.


"Affirmative Action costs us virtually nothing..."

Taxcutter says:
Baloney! Given that government now consumes nearly half the economy, quota to hire minorities that may not be qualified to do the job wastes vast amounts of taxpayer money.


"Affirmative Action ... doesn't create reverse discrimination..."

Taxcutter says:
Nonsense! The operating principle of Affirmative Action is reverse discrimination through quotas.


"Affirmative Action costs ... benefits enterprises far beyond just those that are directly affected by it..."

Taxcutter says:
Quotas that force enterprises to hire people that are otherwise unqualified on basis of skin color is not beneficial to those enterprises or to society in general.

The Davis-Bacon Act was enacted in the 1930s to protect white contractors from lower-cost black contractors on federal jobs. Does this not fly in the face of Affirmative Action? Would you advocate repeal of Davis-Bacon?

 

When we don't have racism. Probably never.

 

Then we're stuck with Affirmative Action forever?

Centuries and centuries of hiring quotas.

 

Could be.

 

Of course it will be never, these people see a white car and call it racist. Its a joke, they NEED the victim groups to serve their political purposes of collectivism. It will NEVER end, the invisible boogie man will always be scaring them.

 

"Could be."

"It will NEVER end..."

Taxcutter says:
As I suspected. Affirmative Action can only be ended by statute. It won't end on its own.

 

Nor should it as long as we have a significant racist element in our society.

 

I'm not even going to ask for evidence for the claim of "a significant racist element in our society." What I'm more interested in is a scientific study showing whether there is less opportunity for minorities based on the color of their skin. I haven't read the entire thread - has anything like that been posted?