To impeach or not to impeach, that is the question

Extremely interesting article, Lee. Should be read by everyone. Thanks.

I find it hard to believe that the majority of Republicans think Trump did nothing wrong when he invited foreign interference in our Presidential election for his political benefit and used extortion on a foreign leader.

Also, the idea of inviting foreign interference in our election and the use of bribery are not impeachable offenses is absurd.

The secret ballot just might work combined with Trump's dwindling support as recent elections prove, and the fact that, again, a record number of Republicans are abandoning the ship known as the U.S.S. Trump.

 

BREAKING: Alleged #Whistleblower Eric Ciaramella ran the meeting that @jsolomonReports was "one of the earliest documented efforts to build the now-debunked Trump-Russia collusion narrative".

 

The dem clown show loves secrets.

 

Why not just let the people decide next November?

 

That is exactly what I recommended in the OP.

 

Then it must be said and shouted across America, this pure foolishness.


1. A waste of money

2. Divides the nation even more

3. Doesn't serve a purpose

Let the people decide, 2016 was a fluke in history, heck the Chicago Cubs won the world series that year.

 

Yes, but a majority of just over 50% support the impeachment inquiry in an average of recent polls, while 43% are opposed to it.

The open hearings will reveal the evidence against Trump. This may change public opinion. That may change the vote in the Senate.

But I doubt it.

I agree. Please note that in the OP I opposed impeaching Trump. However, they should continue gathering evidence of his misconduct and ineptness, and not be shy in letting the public know of their many successes. Then we will see what happens in the election.

 

I think that once the evidence against Trump is made public, the democrats are banking on moderates the GOP and moderate independents abandoning Trump. He can't win with only his far right base, and he's lost a lot of support already.

But thee OP is right that Trump won't be convicted. There might be a few moderates who would vote to convicted based on evidence, but the vast majority of GOP senators are partisan to their souls. They will NEVER vote to convict a Republican president under any circumstances, regardless of evidence.

 

I recommend Lee's article.

 

I do think it's a foregone conclusion that the House at sometime will impeach Trump, the senate will acquit. I think both pro and anti Trumpers will be energized to vote in 2020 because of that. We could get a 60% voter turnout for the first time since 1968. I look at this as a wash so far. Then there is always a chance the public could get impeachment fatigue. I mean independents, not hard core pro or anti Trumpers.

I have no problems with continuing to gather information. I think at this point in time if I were a democrat, I would be concentrating more on coming up with a candidate that would be attractive to independents. Independents really, really disliked Hillary. They disliked Trump also, but not as much as they disliked Hillary. A candidates that is attractive to independents, we know Trump isn't, the democrats could win in a landslide.

Trump is president only because he won the independent vote. Remember, the Republican Party is still the smaller of the two major parties. If Trump and the GOP don't win the independent vote, they lose the election.

 

I seen that. Do we really want our elected leaders voting in secret? Once a precedence is set in something like this, it expands and escalates. Let the senate vote in secret on this, it won't be long before every vote in the senate and the house is done by secret ballot. That way the voter can't hold anyone in congress accountable or responsible for their vote.

It would be akin to having our government run behind closed doors. Like Ex-Democratic Senator Harry Reid's first use of the nuclear option, setting the precedence. Only to have it expanded and escalated for a very short term political gain. This secret ballot stuff by the senate and or the House, would lead to in my opinion to a government run secretly without any public knowledge. The short term gain isn't worth it.

 

Huh. I guess Democracy really does die in darkness.

 

The Republican talking points to defend Trump are all over the various networks. This is the perfect thread for Trump's supporters to use those talking points.

But they have not. Moreover, I can't find them anywhere.

Why aren't Trump supporters using the Republican talking points to defend Trump? One answer is, they are useless. Those talking points will be overwhelmed by the mounting evidence, and, in one case, a talking point is ridiculous. It assumes that someone other than Trump is responsible for foreign affairs in the White House.

Conclusion: Trump's fans are smart enough to know the talking points are useless. I wonder when House Republicans will come to that conclusion.

 

I kind of liked King, He really cared. About what I didn't know half the time, but I liked him. He was colorful, not nasty.

 

This is getting really interesting.

The Post reports, "Eight witnesses are expected to testify next week in the House impeachment inquiry, the panel leading the probe announced Tuesday, as President Trump accused Democrats of relying on “2nd and 3rd hand” testimony on the eve of the first public hearing.

"Among those expected to testify before the House Intelligence Committee are Lt. Col. Alexander Vindman, the former National Security Council director for European affairs; Gordon Sondland, the U.S. ambassador to the European Union; and Kurt Volker, the former special envoy to Ukraine."

 

Well, he's gone along with 23 others. We are not even in 2020 yet. This could be another banner election for Republicans quitting.

I wonder why so many are quitting.

 

When it comes to a short term political gain, even one that seems most important at the time, most people don't take the time to think it through. If I do A to get what I want today, will those who oppose what I want today, at sometime in the future when they can do A also use it against me or even double or triple what I did. Reid's nuclear option is the prime example. He got his appointments but its first use, its precedence setting use has had repercussions. The Democrats now have had it used against them, not only for appointments below the SCOTUS, but expanded to include the SCOTUS. You can bet the ranch that within the next few years, the nuclear option will be used for legislation also. Trump has already proposed that. It just a matter of time.

Schumer and others who were around when Reid first used the nuclear option, egged him on to use it, now say that was their biggest mistake in their senate career. Not that they weren't warned about it, not only from McConnell and the Republicans, but from three other Democratic senators at the time. Manchin, Pryor and Levin. Those three Democrats realized that at some time in the future the Republicans would regain the senate and the nuclear option would be used against them. But that all fell on deaf ears. The quest for immediate short term political advantage over rode the long term effects.

I personally think we have more than enough secrecy in government, we don't need more.

 

I didn't endorse the article's intent. I merely said it was interesting.

On the other hand, like it or not, secret votes are not uncommon.

 

In today's public hearing Taylor’s testimony was consistent with what he told the panel previously, an account that included vivid details of how he discovered that Mr. Trump was conditioning “everything” about the United States relationship with Ukraine — including needed military aid and a White House meeting for Ukraine’s president — on the country’s willingness to commit publicly to investigations of his political rivals. His testimony made it clear that the Ukrainians were well aware of the prerequisite at the time.

The top Republican on the Intelligence panel accused the witnesses of working against Trump, casting previous testimony by diplomats and national security officials about the President’s actions toward Ukraine as nothing more than unfounded, second- or third-hand allegations from members of a “politicized bureaucracy.”

In other words, Republicans are saying there is no chain of command in the Trump government, someone other than the President controls foreign relations in the White House, and the only viable witnesses are those in direct contact with Trump.

And Trump is forbidding those witnesses like Mulvaney and Bolton to testify. That is Obstruction of Congress, a federal offense.

In other words, Republicans are arguing that Trump should be allowed to benefit from committing a felony.

 

I don't know if you would classify voice votes as secret. They're not recorded by individual representative or senator. Recorded votes are. At least on the floors of the House and Senate. One can go to the records of both chambers to find out how your representative or senator voted on any particular bill, legislation, confirmation etc. unless it was a voice vote.

Committees, I've never heard of a committee having a secret vote, passing or defeating any legislation, forwarding an appointee to the full senate etc. If you have please enlighten me. I've never researched this.

 

Not to change the subject, but I am going to change the subject to something more important.

Republicans have to be gnashing their teeth over the abject stupidity of the Republican President.

Trump's order to retreat in Syria betrayed a key ally who suffered 11,000 casualties in quelling the ISIS terrorist threat. Trump's retreat order facilitated the Turkish invasion of Syria and the attempt by the Turkish dictator, President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, to annihilate the Kurds who he regards as terrorists.

Trump enabled Edogan to kill hundreds of Kurds and causing thousands more to abandon their homes, becoming refugees.

On a day when live, public House impeachment hearings began featuring two key witnesses against Trump, William B. Taylor Jr., acting ambassador to Ukraine, and his boss, George Kent, deputy assistant secretary of state for European and Eurasian affairs, provided devastating evidence of abuse of power, on a day when desperate Republicans are trying vainly to defend Trump from his own incriminating statements, guess who Trump invites to the White House.

You got it, Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan.

It is an in your face gesture to Republicans from a Republican President.

How smart is that?

Republicans are in the midst of drafting a bipartisan sanctions bill targeting Turkey for its aggressive action against the Kurds, aggressive action caused by Trump's retreat. Some of the strongest Congressional critics have included some of Trump's closest congressional allies, including Senator Lindsey Graham, who has repeatedly warned Erdoğan about the repercussions of his actions and has drafted his own sweeping sanctions bill targeting the country.

Lawmakers on both sides of the aisle called for Trump to rescind the White House invitation to Erdoğan entirely. The White House declined to do so.

How smart is that?

Pretty smart if Trump is acting like a Russian puppet whose sole purpose is to create havoc in the capital.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/13/politics/trump-erdogan-republican-senators/index.html helped with this report.

 

Trump has insisted that the US military presence in Syria is “only for the oil”, contradicting his own officials who have insisted that the remaining forces were there to fight ISIS.

It never ends with Trump.

 

I think the question is: To replace broken government with one that works for all The People, or not to replace broken government with one that works for all The People.

Partisan political hackery won't solve any systemic problem and will only serve to make them worse. Great theater and massive distraction from the growing National Debt now approaching a cool $23 Trillion on the books. Off the books, a heck of a lot more than that. Priorities, people. Priorities. We've got much bigger fish to fry than Donald J. Trump.

We have a broken arrow government that needs systemic reform and a massive injection of ethics, morals, character, integrity, principles and priorities that align with the longevity of the Republic. We should be all about the business of Conservation of the Republic at this stage in our 232+ year old experiment. Conserve the Republic so that it can stand to serve We The People, of the united states of America.

Impeachment? Let's impeach Congress for spending us into oblivion, first. Let's get life long politicians and deep state incumbent bureaucrats the heck out of Washington and lets get our own House in order by rectifying our own National Budget Expenditures, so that they are in alignment with the goal of Conserving the Republic. In other words, lets get serous about Democracy, people. We are, at present, cutting off our collective nose to spite our collective face. That's not smart. That's not even faking smart. That's flat out dumb. We participate in defacing ourselves by continually allowing what has become a rogue and out of control government to sell us down the river.

It is time for change, folks. Business as usual is killing us. Literally, killing us. Who willingly does that to themselves while retaining the status of sane. Who? Who destroys their own House while considering themselves rational. Who? Who fails to take out the garbage in their own kitchen while calling themselves sanitary. Who? And, who fails to take control of their own Governance while considering themselves free. Who?

Wake up, people. This charade in Washington has seen better days. It is time for something new. Something the Founders would have appreciated and warranted as right, true and correct. Follow the advice of our Founders and change that which has failed us, by replacing it with that which serves all of us. This is the work of a true Democracy. This is the legacy of a truly Free People. Otherwise, you will continue in Economic Slavery for as long as this corporate charade continues - all the while deluded into believing you are somehow making real progress, yet never climbing out of the debt you have been laden with.

Take personal responsibility to do your part for the sake of Conserving The Republic for all The People. That's your role, responsibility and duty as a Citizen of this Country. That is what it means to be a United States Citizen.

 

I agree. We can begin by removing a foolish, incompetent, narcissistic President who has broken our nation's laws by inviting foreign interference in our Presidential election and extorting a foreign leader.

Again, I quite agree. The Trump government is the most chaotic government in modern American history. It is, indeed, a charade.

 

The Post reports, "House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) said Thursday that testimony presented by two career diplomats during Wednesday’s open impeachment hearing “corroborated evidence of bribery” by President Trump in his relations with Ukraine.

"Her comments come as Democrats seek to build a case that Trump sought to withhold military assistance and an Oval Office meeting until Ukraine announced investigations into former vice president Joe Biden and his son, as well as an unfounded theory that Ukrainians interfered in the 2016 presidential election to hurt Trump."

The White House, meanwhile, could release a transcript Thursday from an April call between Trump and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky. That call took place earlier than the July call that is at the center of impeachment inquiry. The only party interested is ... the White House.