Trump orders American troops to retreat

I think Obama didn't want another "Iraq." If there is one thing both Trump and Obama have in common, it is their common opinion that China is the larger, long term threat to the U.S. than remaining in one quagmire after another in the Middle East. Exiting the region was/is a goal of both, via different means.
That would not be a goal that makes Netanyahu happy, whom I believe thinks that a permanent U.S. presence in the region is necessary. I'd have to read the DIA report. I find it difficult to believe they would expose a classified CIA operation. You may be misinterpreting the report. The DIA was one of the "homes" of neoconservatives in the build-up to our Iraq invasion, during the Bush years (i.e. Douglas J. Feith).
My broader theory is that "regime change" was the fall-back position of the Bush administration, when they couldn't find WMD in Iraq (although calling for such goes back to the Clinton administration, with the "concept" itself going back in American history to our foreign policy of the early 19th century and the Greek Revolution). The emphasis on "regime change" and establishing "democracies" in the ME, led to the Arab Spring...leading to the Syrian civil war.

 

I agree Obama did not want another Iraq - which is why he used a Proxy army. If Obama did not want to get involved in the ME - then he should not have done what he did to Syria. It is not like we were in there prior to Obama - and he took over the mess.. Obama created the mess.

The DIA did not release information on an "ongoing" CIA operation. When the report was released the operation was over - so no longer classified. This is not about having a presence in the region .. it is about arming and supporting Al Qaeda.

We are wandering down a rabbit hole here - Sans your comment on the Arab Spring - which I will address.

The oft made claim in the MSM that the conflict in Syria was spawned by the "Arab Spring" - is a State Sponsored Propaganda false narrative and 2) the conflict in Syria was not a "civil war" - it was an armed insurgency.

The protest movement in Syria - initially - included moderates who wanted changes to Gov't. This was inspired by the "Arab Spring".

The Hard Line Islamist's quickly took over the protest movement. The moderates wanted nothing to do with these radical Islamist extremists. These Radical Islamist's started telling Christians to either join the protest movement - or leave the country - and engaging in violence and atrocity.

Below is an article from the Christian Post - detailing the situation in Syria prior to armed insurrection.

Christians Under Attack From Anti-Government Protesters in Syria

https://www.christianpost.com/news/...om-anti-government-protestors-in-syria-50104/

These radical Islamist Salafi groups were the one's that we armed and supported in a proxy war against Assad.

1) Syria is a "Secular" nation - There is no Strict Shari Law - no death penalty for apostasy, adultery, homosexuality. There is alcohol and dancing in bars. Women wear skirts and proper bathing suits. A woman does not need permission from a man to be educated and needs not be accompanied by a relative to go out in public. There are Christian Churches and relative freedom of religion.

Syria - is one of the most free Muslim Nations on the Planet - and the people of Syria wanted to keep those freedoms (sans the radical Islamists)

2) The radical Islamists "HATE" Secularism - they hate individual liberty and want Strict Sharia (Islamic Law) to be the law of the land - as per this article and the NY Times article previously given. The western infidel is one thing - "Secularism" in a Muslim nation - particularly in the ME - is a cancer from within.

The Anti Assad insurgency was a Holy Jihad - a Jihad to turn Syria into Saudi Inspired Strict Sharia Totalitarian Nightmare.

3) There were no "moderates" in this insurgency - The "moderate rebel lie" is a piece of propaganda spin that has been refuted six ways to Sunday - even by VP-Biden.

https://mideastshuffle.com/2014/10/04/biden-turks-saudis-uae-funded-and-armed-al-nusra-and-al-qaeda/

The "moderates" in this battle were the people of Syria fighting in Assad's army. These people were fighting to keep their freedoms - the Jihadists were fighting to take them away.

 

Do you believe in the End of Days? And, if we're subject to being brainwashed by "State Sponsored Propaganda," what excluded the DIA report? Isn't the DIA part of the State? Finally, cite a reference to the DIA report that I may review myself. Whether the operation was over or not, I doubt the DIA would be naming the CIA.

 

What part of - 13 bipartisan in congress - "named the CIA" along with numerous others in Congress and hundreds of other sources - is not sinking in ?

Do you seriously suggest that the CIA was not involved ? - and that these 13 bipartisan in congress are lying ? - I will just let that one simmer.

Topic 2 - Propaganda

1) what do you know about Propaganda ? Serious question - Your comments are confusing. Have you studied this subject at all ?

What is "End of Days" - perhaps I do believe and don't realize it ? What are you talking about - and why is this comment not some ad hom "demonization of the messenger" fallacy ?

You then say "If we are brainwashed by state sponsored propaganda"

Folks that study these issues do not talk in terms of "IF" - the question is one of degree. Not even sure where to begin - no idea what your level is ... perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment.

It is not called "Propaganda" these days - Edward Bernay's rebranded the science to - "Public Relations" and/or "Media Relations" due to the negative connotations of the term being associated with Hitler.

It is a multi Billion dollar business - What else is new in the History of the World ?

So let me ask you this - are denying that State Sponsored Propaganda exists ? Please say no

 

You didn't answer all of my questions. For one thing, you claimed the DIA report named the CIA as the arms providers. Now, you've switched to the 13 "bi-partisan" members of Congress, who couldn't get their bill out of committee. Secondly, yes, I've studied the use of propaganda in sociology, psychology and political science courses, which led to a focus in graduate school on the use of bureaucratic politics in Soviet and American foreign policy. The end of days is a theory by religious fanatics (some Jewish, most Christians) that the world will end in a climatic battle in the Middle East. It was a question...not a condemnation...but if you wish to take it that way, that's OK as well. The "if" phrase was conditional on your claim of "state sponsored propaganda." Most governments engage in "state sponsored propaganda" to one degree or other. You were specifically claiming that the Syrian civil war, initiated by the Arab Spring," was "State Sponsored Propaganda" and that it wasn't a civil war, but an "armed insurgency" (i.e. you are a supporter of the Assad government?). In the next sentence, you admitted that it was initially a protest initiated by the Arab Spring.
I fail to see any logical point you are trying to make. Why don't you come back, once you've figured out who you are supporting and who you are not supporting. As I said, tough questions to answer in the Middle East.

 

Huh ?! The snippet given to you from the DIA Report mentions CIA - after detailing huge shipments of arms - and what difference does it make whether it was the CIA - or some other branch of the US military operations ? Why would you dwell on such silliness ? We were involved in arms transfers to our proxy army.

We know the CIA was involved .. because 13 Bipartisan in congress have said so.

We were doing a "covert weapons supplying operation" to Syrian Rebels - surely you know this much. What would be the point of the Trump administration announcing the this operation was going to stop .. if it wasn't going on to begin with ? What difference does it make whether it is the CIA doing the operation or the Pentagon ? It is the USA doing the arming of the anti Assad Syrian Rebels - either way.

Unfortunately - I am not to much shocked that someone who has studied social sciences at a college level - can engage in such self delusion and denial. Its a sad thing.

I have obviously dented one of your necessary illusion bubbles - as all you are responding with is demonization of the messenger and mischaracterization of the message - (building strawmen so you have something to attack)

I told you I supported the people of Syria - and their fight against the Islamist Jihadists.

The above is more than a claim - it is a demonstrable fact - as per the link given you -

1) it was not a civil war - use of such a term is "propaganda"
2) The Propaganda MSM narrative - did not just claim the Arab Spring "initiated" the conflict - they present it as if the whole of the war was rooted in the Arab Spring movement... and this is a complete lie .. on many levels. Propaganda.

The "Sin of Omission" is committed by not including relevant "color" .. leading the reader/listener to believe that the "Arab Spring" was a significant factor in the armed insurgency ... with no mention of what the people of Syria are fighting for.

3) of course I support the Assad Gov't running things over ISIS - Al Qaeda ? as do the people of Syria fighting for Assad.

Which side do you support ?

 

Complicated issue...I believe Assad to be largely a "captive leader." He either backs his father's party, which includes the backing of Russia and Iran, or he's eliminated by the people around him. I believe he was educated, in England, to be a doctor. I liked his initial interviews with the western press. He seemed dedicated to the secularization of Syria. But...as we say here...Sh*t Happens. I am sure, today, he'd rather be managing some exclusive clinic in Switzerland. He's caught between global forces...which seem to be dedicated to the destruction of the country...by either remaining in power or destroying those who are.
Sadly...Clausewitz was right. War IS a continuation of politics by other means.

 

I don't give a sht about Assad ... The people don't like him much either. ... but they hate the radical Islamist Jihadists and sure as heck don't want the country taken over by the Jihadists. Which is why they fight for Assad. And I support this fight.

The only complicated thing here - is you figuring out that you have been sucked in by State Sponsored Propaganda .. would you like a few more examples ?

"Iran is the #1 State Sponsor of Terror" -- did you gulp that one down - or did you manage to spot that one for what it was "Propaganda"

How about another "We did not knowingly support a proxy army of radical Islamist Jihadists" That one you bought hook line and sinker - and are still trying not to spit up that poison "necessary illusion" lizard - engaging in the most mind twisting avoidance techniques .. desperately trying to come up with some coherent apology for atrocity.

400,000 dead Syrians - was not caused by the "Arab Spring" movement - It was caused by numerous major Nation States .. US, Saudi, Turkey, Qatar, Brits, France, working with numerous other Nation States - funneling tens of thousands of tons of sophisticated Military Equipment and other support - over 5 years - to a Radical Islamist Proxy Army - that wanted to turn Syria into a Strict Sharia Islamic State.

You say "OH .. You must support Assad" - like a good adherent to the false doctrine .. Don't forget to include a Putin Supporter.

Which side do you support ? -

Virginia Senator Thanks Syrian President Bashar Al Assad for Saving the Lives of Christians
Open Letter of U.S. Senator Richard H. Black to President Bashar al-Assad Acknowledges US Support to Terrorists

Those that Richard is describing above ... is that who you support ?

Seems you are not alone .. can you explain how you were tricked into supporting the jihadists ?

Was it perhaps that you did not hear about the good Senator's letter to Assad on CNN ?

Many US officials do not share your zeal for equipping and training terrorists - Says Richard. After seeing what happened to Gabbard - it is little wonder so few speak out... but - there are enough that do.

Pick a side .. do you support the US Establishment under the Obama Administration - who sided with the Anti Assad Jihadist proxy army -

or do you support the people of Syria who fought for Assad ?

 

That sure is true now, thanks to Trump's surrender. He moved our troops out of the way so Russia could dominate the region.

Putins's jets patrol Syrian skies. Putin's military is expanding operations in Syria. Putin is forging closer ties to Turkey and his Syrian allies are moving into territory vacated by the United States. Trump's unconditional surrender to Putin also emboldens Syria's ally, Iran.

And on Tuesday, Putin played host to President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey for more than six hours of talks on how they and other regional players will divide control of Syria. They will decide matters now in Syria, not the U.S. Long live the butcher, Bashar al Assad.

"Thank you, Donald," Vladimir Putin.

 

So has Congress passed a Use of Force authorization for Syria yet?

 

It looks like "The Butcher" Assad - and Putin .. and Erdogan - have made an accord. No guarantees that this will hold but, if it does - The fighting may settle down.

Putin wants his Jets out of Syria - and the sooner the better as it is costing a fortune. Putin had gotten what he wanted long before this Kurd issue - influence over Syria.

We were out of there soon - any way you slice it or dice it.

Now that the war is over - If you think we can just sit in Syria - like we did in Afghanistan - your dreaming.

Since the war is over - we are doubly in violation of international law. Our faux excuse was not sufficient to not be in violation of international law to begin with - and now that excuse is gone.

Then there is the glaring fact that the conflict in Syria was a situation of our own creation .. one that left 400,000 dead and spawned war crimes, crimes against humanity - and a host of other horrible atrocities.

So our Troops are leaving - tail between legs - on route to Iraq - but, Iraq has other ideas.

IRAQ TROLLS U.S. SYRIA WITHDRAWAL, TELLS AMERICAN TROOPS THEY CAN’T STAY

https://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/I...l-tells-American-troops-they-cant-stay-605385

The article goes on to blame Trump - but - at some point this would have happened - and time was ticking.

The History books are going to be far harder on Obama - with respect to Syria - than Trump.

 

With the exception of Trump's followers who support his cooperation with Vladimir Putin, Trump has accomplished the impossible. He has made Americans feel ashamed of being an American.

He betrayed an ally. He has proven, that under his stewardship, America cannot be trusted. He has ceded power broker status in the Middle East to Russia.

"Russia Assumes Mantle of Supreme Power Broker in the Middle East," proclaimed Britain's Telegraph. "Russia's status as the undisputed power-broker in the Middle East was cemented as Vladimir Putin continued a triumphant tour of capitals traditionally allied to the US."

"Donald Trump Has Handed Putin the Middle East on a Plate," according to the Telegraph. "Putin Seizes on Trump's Syria Retreat to Cement Middle East Role," said the Financial Times.

The conservative leaning Washington Examiner writes, "The awful and obviously predictable outcome of President Trump’s surrender in Syria has now come to pass.

"Turkey and Russia have announced an agreement to remove Kurdish fighters from northern Syria, a horrible development for the forces of freedom and Middle Eastern stability. This agreement supersedes the Kurds' earlier attempt at an agreement with Russia and the government of Bashar Assad. Now, Turkey will move against YPG Kurdish units in northern Syria from one side, while Russia and its Syrian government clients will move in from the other. Crucially, all Kurdish fighting “elements and their weapons” will “be removed from Manbij and Tal Rifat.”

"Those towns, especially the large town of Manbij, are strategic linchpins. Without them, the Kurds can be essentially starved out. There could be an immense humanitarian crisis."

If Russia ends up effectively dominating Turkey, the damage it can do in the eastern Mediterranean region is immense.

The conservative Examiner concludes, There is not a single strategic or tactical gain for U.S. interests that has been gained from Trump’s order of withdrawal. In fact, more U.S. troops will be in the Middle East than before, but nations traditionally hostile to the U.S. are now ascendant.

This is disastrous, pure and simple.

Of course, none of this bothers Trump's fans.

 

Sandy, what do you think of the war on the border between Mexico and the United States?

 

I'm sure that was never much of a problem for you.

 

Of course, none of this bothers Trump's fans.

 

Trump and his SecDef, Mark Esper, are without shame as they try to defend Trump's decision to surrender to Turkey and Russia.

Recently, Esper was interviewed by Christiane Amanpour. In that interview our secretary of defense said, The United States "didn't sign up to fight a war to defend the Kurds against a longstanding NATO ally."

So, according to Esper, if the Turks wish to eliminate an American ally, that is okay with him and U.S. forces won't get in the way. That, or course, is what the military ignorant Trump said. Trump and Esper think it is their job to prevent our troops from getting hurt.

He added later that Turkey "is a longstanding NATO ally," saying, "we're not going to go to war with a NATO ally and certainly not ... with regard to a border that we didn't sign up to defend in the first place."

"We're not going to go to war with a NATO ally." Did our secretary fo defense think Turkey would engage U.S. forces? Did he not know that a small U.S. force has been in Syria for over two years as a buffer to prevent going to war.

It worked until Trump removed that buffer and war began immediately as Turkey invaded Syria. Now the region is controlled by Turkey, Russia, and the butcher, Assad.

The gutless Esper was hired by Trump to be his mouthpiece in the Pentagon. Esper is doing a great job of doing just that.

 

I'm confused, are you saying we should go to war with a NATO ally? If that's the case...we have a LOT more questions to ask you about your feelings of Obama and Bill Clinton.... (let's see the deflection)

 

Check out his post #544. He admits he's clueless about what we should be doing, all he knows is to support the opposite of what Trump does. It's mine boggling how ignorant that he and his crew seems to be. They've no idea why we were in Syria in the first place.

 

And he wins again.

 

Well... you gotta understand one thing: They know that they have a better chance of convincing Pelosi to resign than they have of convincing the American people that Trump is not a criminal. At this point, they're just playing the odds. What else could they do?

 

I said, "We're not going to go to war with a NATO ally." Did our secretary of defense think Turkey would engage U.S. forces? Did he not know that a small U.S. force has been in Syria for over two years as a buffer to prevent going to war."

Which is it? You have a serious reading problem or you are trying to waste my time with a dumb question I already answered.

Trump caused a war with his dishonorable decision to betray an ally. He removed the buffer.

 

You must enjoy making a fool of yourself. You are right, though. Now that our brilliant C-in-C has caused numerous casualties and masses of refugees, then turned the entire region over to Turkey, Russia, and Iran, I don't know what to do. It is a huge mess and the solution is above my pay grade.

Of course, none of this bothers Trump's fans.

Trump defended his dishonorable surrender decision to betray our Kurdish allies today. To properly understand Trump's statements one must know two things.

First, directly as a result of Trump's decision, hundreds have died and over 100,000 people have been forced to leave their homes. Secondly, Trump speaks only to his base, not Republicans in Congress and not the American people as a whole. Only his base will believe his statements.

“This was an outcome created by us, the United States, and nobody else,” Trump said. “No other nation. Very simple.” No, this was an outcome created by Trump and his unconditional surrender to Turkish and Russian goals. For example, Russian troops now occupy former American bases.

Trump announced that the United States had brokered a permanent cease-fire in northeast Syria, taking credit for a tentative deal that was worked out between Turkey and Russia. He lifted the sanctions he had imposed after Turkey invaded Kurdish-run areas south of its border. The President cast the announcement as a triumph of diplomacy.

In other words, this is complete capitulation to Turkey and Russia, and Trump is telling his base this was a diplomatic victory and a proud moment for America.

“Let someone else fight over this long bloodstained sand,” Trump said. It is Trump's wish to abandon Israel, leave the Middle East and its strategic oil deposits, and turn the whole region over to Russia, Turkey, and Iran. Trump even said it. “Others have come out to help and we welcomed them to do so; other countries have stepped forward,” referring to the hours of negotiations in Sochi, Russia between Putin and President Recep Tayyip Erdogan of Turkey. “They want to help and we think that’s great.”

Good grief, this is our President. Has he lost his mind? Is this another one of his stupid jokes?

“The government of Turkey informed my administration that they would be stopping combat and their offensive in Syria, and making the cease-fire permanent,” Trump said. Doesn't the idiot know Erdogan stopped the fighting because he has gotten everything he wanted and more.

Trump calls this a diplomatic triumph???

Erdogan and Putin have to be laughing their fool heads off at the American President. Putin picked a good one when he picked Trump to run our country.

Now to top everything off, there was a ruckus in the capital today as Republican representatives stormed the meeting room for the impeachment hearing, delaying testimony for about five hours.

No doubt Trump's fans are quite happy with all this.

 

Saudi Arabia has NO interest in Syria. Why do you just make this stuff up?

Very few Syrian Christians left the country. The majority of the 6 million who fled are Sunni... like the Kurds are Sunni.

 

VP -Biden - and a gazillion other sources - disagree with you.

https://mideastshuffle.com/2014/10/04/biden-turks-saudis-uae-funded-and-armed-al-nusra-and-al-qaeda/

Half of Assad's army is Sunni. Your blind partisan love for El Saud is showing - again.

 

The US allied with the Kurdish elements to fight ISIS. They joined us because ISIS was killing them in their homes.

This does not make us blood brothers. The Kurds aren't even a country. They're not going to ride to our rescue any where else in the world.

We are not the world's policemen.

Why do you encouraging US imperialism? I thought leftists were against that.