TRUMP SCIENCE ADVISOR DENIES APOLLO MOON LANDINGS EVER HAPPENED

Not too reflective here either...

And while we're at it - take a real good look at the LM - doesn't it appear that
the Lunar Lander, a supposed six billion dollar hallmark of American engineering, is in truth made out of cardboard, a few old curtain rods, a roll of roofing paper, some floodlight holders, gold foil, and lots and lots of scotch tape to hold it all together on the hostile environment of the moon's surface. Does this thing really look like it could withstand the rigors of space flight?

 

You horribly ignorant troll. Not an original thought in your head, everything from the Idiots Guide to The Madhoax!

What passes for logic with you is breathtakingly inept. It takes literally 2 minutes to find development videos of this fantastic piece of engineering, but the likes of you lack the moral fibre to even attempt to do so. The exterior is wrapped in reflective foil and lightweight meteorite shielding.



How do unmanned satellites and other vehicles keep cool in space for years?

Show your calculations for the LM heating up in the Sun.

Show where I denied there was water in the rocks you deceptively attempted to do already!

Show where I made mistakes with my lunar sample posts that you already attempted and failed to do.

In fact - stop being a useless troll and try debating. That involves reading my posts and responding properly.

How does Mylar reflect and absorb heat by the SB equation?

 

Maybe there is a reason they are unmanned?

 

Answer the question troll. Are you now denying that man has been in space!

Answer them all, be a man. You never seem to tire of getting your butt kicked.

 

Yep, too bad the ORIGINAL engineering blueprints and specs were lost - would have been nice to know how they did this. You have to admit - it really does look like they used some roofing paper. My advice to NASA is "Don't open any auto body repair shops!"

No Beta, I didn't make any errors using Stefan's law in calculating the temperature of an object in space in direct sun at a distance of the earth/moon. Both me and Alan Bean are right on this one - you are the one who is in error - sorry!

 

The blueprints for the LM are held at the Marshall space centre. There are engineering drawings available online. Yet another fail.

No sonny, you cut and pasted from a NASA link. You had no idea what you were reading. It is the law for a perfect black body with emissivity of 1. The LM is covered almost completely in Mylar that has an emissivity factor of 0.04 and aluminum hull which has roughly 0.09. Your failure is not just in screwing that up,reading it, understanding it but most notably in reading where I have explained this to you.

What kind of person fails so badly, keeps trolling and lacks the balls to admit they messed up. Your kind!

Now troll:-

How do unmanned satellites and other vehicles keep cool in space for years?

Show your calculations for the LM heating up in the Sun. Factor in correct emissivity.

Show where I denied there was water in the rocks you deceptively attempted to do already!

Show where I made mistakes with my lunar sample posts that you already attempted and failed to do.

In fact - stop being a useless troll and try debating. That involves reading my posts and responding properly.

How does Mylar reflect and absorb heat by the SB equation?

 

Nope, you are the one that copies and pastes - you are the one that doesn't understand it - you are the one that says they know more than Alan Bean about his own spaceship.

 

You irritating childish fool. You have an appalling lack of integrity. You made a post quoting a law that any physics student understands. Quite clearly you do not. It refers specifically to an ideal radiator, a black body as it is known. You actually thought it refers to every object heated up by our sun! That's just plain dumb.

You failed to admit your error, doubled down on it and now, when your ignorance is clearly in your face, you still deny it. You lifted it virtually word for word from a NASA web page!

To anybody even non students of physics, highly reflective objects are going to heat up less than the maximum!

Now troll:-

How do unmanned satellites and other vehicles keep cool in space for years?

Show your calculations for the LM heating up in the Sun. Factor in correct emissivity.

Show where I denied there was water in the rocks you deceptively attempted to do already!

Show where I made mistakes with my lunar sample posts that you already attempted and failed to do.

In fact - stop being a useless troll and try debating. That involves reading my posts and responding properly.

How does Mylar reflect and absorb heat by the SB equation?

 

Since you seem to know all about this - why don't you do the calculations?

Here - I'll get you started:

Energy Emitted = Epsilon x Sigma x T^4

Nope, you are the blunderer here...

 

I have made no blunders. You're like a little child in the schoolyard. You ain't fooling anybody. You are the one making the claim sonny. You do the math.

 

Already did...

 

You didn't do anything. You lifted the whole thing from a NASA web page. It is an equation for determining the temperature of a flat plate, perfect black body. What it is not, is the internal temperature of a craft with multi layers of wrinkled thermal shielding, ribbed aluminum hull and micro-meteorite shielding.

You know you have been caught red handed. You're just not man enough to admit it What is even more absurd, is that the whole thing is a flimsy straw man!

The LM was fitted with a cooling system that did not fail, therefore leaving your pitiful and clumsy hogwash as meaningless obfuscation.

 

Do you even know what that means? Just take a look at the LM - it is NOT very reflective. A nice shiny flat piece of metallized mylar cannot be compared to the crinkled up dust covered LM that we see in the photos.

 

I know exactly what that means. I provided a picture in a previous post showing it.

I took a look. Descent stage covered in wrinkled Mylar. Ascent stage outer layer micro-meteorite shielding, underneath crinkled layers of Mylar and Kapton. Beneath the multiple layers a ribbed aluminum hull also easily available to see in above picture

Apart from the dust I agree 100%. The LM hasn't picked up any exterior dust.

As for a flat sheet, presenting a full flat surface to a heat source guarantees it to heat up far quicker! The idea behind wrinkling the foil and using multiple layers is to present surfaces that are heated by the less powerful incident rays, and vacuum between them.

 

OK - what exactly does it mean when you say mylar that has an emissivity factor of 0.04 and aluminum hull which has roughly 0.09 ?

 

Google it troll.

 

You don't know, do you? because if you did you would know why me and Alan Bean are right and you are wrong...

 

I do know troll. You're response is to bait me to get me to respond. I'll throw you a bone.

Low emissivity means the shielding will emit a very small part of what it absorbs. When the outer layer achieves equilibrium, a process which involves conductivity to the parts in shade, it will only emit a fraction of its total heat.

Since inner layers can only absorb from radiation they will be getting warmed up by exterior panels emitting 5 to 10% of their total heat. The next layer in will receive much less than direct sunlight. Then on and on through each layer all with low emissivity.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multi-layer_insulation

"The principle behind MLI is radiation balance. To see why it works, start with a concrete example - imagine a square meter of a surface in outer space, at 300 K, with an emissivity of 1, facing away from the sun or other heat sources. From the Stefan–Boltzmann law, this surface will radiate 460 W. Now imagine placing a thin (but opaque) layer 1 cm away from the plate, thermally insulated from it, and also with an emissivity of 1. This new layer will cool until it is radiating 230 W from each side, at which point everything is in balance. The new layer receives 460 W from the original plate. 230 W is radiated back to the original plate, and 230 W to space. The original surface still radiates 460 W, but gets 230 W back from the new layers, for a net loss of 230 W. So overall, the radiation losses have been reduced by half by adding the additional layer."

Then from Grumman who built it:-

"The entire ascent stage structure is enveloped with a thermal and micrometeoroid shield, which combines a blanket of multiple layers of aluminized polyimide sheet (Kapton H-film) and aluminized polyester sheet (mylar) with a sandwich of Inconel skin, Inconel mesh and nickel foil or a polyimide blanket with a single sheet of aluminum skin. The blanket panels, formed in various shapes and sizes, consist (outboard to inboard) of 15 layers of 0.0005-inch-thick H-film. In a few ascent stage areas that have different thermal-protection requirements, the number of layers in a blanket panel varies slightly. Outboard to inboard, the the sandwich comprises a 0.0015-inch-thick Inconel skin and one or more layers of Inconel mesh alternated with 0.0005-inch-thick nickel foil. the number of Inconel mesh and nickel foil layers in a sandwich and the thickness of the aluminum skin vary considerably at different areas of the vehicle, depending on the duration and intensity of RCS thruster plume impingement at those areas. The combined thermal and micrometeoroid shield is mounted on low-thermal-conductive supports (standoffs), which keep it at least 2 inches from the main structure... The aluminum or Inconel skin (the outermost material) serves as a micrometoroid bumper; the sandwich and blanket material serve as thermal shielding...

The aluminized Mylar blankets insulate the structure against temperatures up to +350 (deg) F. On the TCA support truss members, which are subjected to temperatures in excess of +350 (deg) F due to engine radiation, an additional 20 layers of H-film are installed. H-film has an insulating capability up to +1,000 (deg) F. Additional H-film blankets are also used in other areas of the ascent stage that will be subjected to temperatures in excess of +350 (deg) F."

I don't anticipate you being a man and conceding anything. Every time you get a simple lesson you jump up and down like a baby. There is plenty of information available for the curious and for trolls. Multi layer insulation even works on Earth where we have convection.

What next? Hissy fit because you are hopelessly wrong again?

 

That's right! Nice shiny surfaces reflect much of the radiation - but the problem is - they are poor emitters of the radiation. So, even though less energy is absorbed, less is emitted - and compared to low reflective surfaces the net result is: THE OBJECT HEATS UP TO THE SAME TEMPERATURE ANYWAY!

You know you are cornered - and that is why you have fallen back on this large "copy and paste" display. Alan Bean had an engineering degree and knew the capabilities of his spacecraft - you clearly don't.

 

What a laborious troll you are. Even when basic entry level is explained to you, you stupidly keep firing blanks at the thread. Which part of low emissivity acting on inner layers confuses you? All of it?

Regardless of how hot the outer layer gets and NOWHERE have I discussed this, its ability to emit heat to the layer beside it in a vacuum is very poor. From there, each layer gets progressively worse.

I know you are an ignorant troll who is deceptive. You really have no idea whatsoever about any of this. It is futile trying to educate people like you. The "copy and paste" which you cowardly ignored, is by way of citation. Tell us all how a supposedly 250F crumpled layer of Mylar or Kapton, emitting 0.05 of its heat, manages to bring up the layer next to it, to a similar temperature. Did you even read the specifications from Grumman? Tell everybody why aluminum covered roofs are significantly lower temperatures than black body roofs?

Al Bean had an AERONAUTICAL engineering degree in 1955. That doesn't cover thermal design of spacecrafts! Knowing the specification of his craft didn't cover speculation as to every possible consequence to every system failure. I certainly don't claim to know the operational capabilities of that vehicle, to the level of a man who has landed it on the Moon.

Al Bean: I can remember walking on the moon.

Is he lying? Because you seem to value his opinion on something he has no formal qualification in.

Message to all users of triple layer vacuum flasks that keep ice cold for 30 hours guaranteed and much more un-guaranteed, even in direct sunlight at the beach:-

Forget about it, some forum troll says MLI doesn't work!

 

Please respond to this. If you claim it doesn't work, identify the flaw.

I'm also wondering at what point you claim that the LM will reach +200F temperatures. You seem to be suggesting that this will occur during the time the Apollo astronauts are on the Moon1-3 days. I expect the temperature to climb quite dramatically at around zenith, simply from the fact that the Sun would be able to strike the LM windows - and ONLY from that point would it climb dramatically. But that is around 10 to 12 days after they landed. I also expect the temperature to be similar to car temperatures on a hot day, which are significantly lower than those proposed by Al Bean.

Your straw man is really one of the most pathetic arguments I have come across. The LM had cooling and it did not fail. What kind of person argues and fails miserably to even make a straw man case stick!. Your kind.

 

Because they are on the earth - but put them in space at earth/moon distance and they will reach the same 250 degrees F temperature. I know it is contrary to our earthly view of things - but in the vacuum of space there is no way to transfer energy except by radiation - and the different emissivity doesn't change the equilibrium temperature. Amazing, isn't it?

 

1. If you claim Multi Layer Insulation doesn't work, identify the flaw.
2.The LM had cooling and it did not fail, why is your straw man even relevant?
3. Point me to Al Bean's thermal engineering training in a 1955 degree.
4. How long exactly are you claiming it will be before the oxygen interior reaches maximum temperature?
5. How do unmanned satellites and other vehicles keep cool in space for years?

I'm wondering if you can even read. You pay such scant attention to responses, you deceptively avoid things you can't answer. Don't tell me I'm "cornered" when you routinely and very cowardly evade a whole plethora of items!

Multi layer insulation works. It is a method used all over the world in various forms and helps control thermal transfer, it is used majorly in thermal control in space. The whole point of having low emissivity, high reflectivity is to slow down the absorption of radiation and limit the radiation speed to inner layers. Simple vacuum flasks left in the Sun provide cool drinks after 30 hours plus. If you doubled the layers from 3 to 6 or to the ones used on Apollo 10+ you would see nothing getting through in any significant time. The LM is by no means a perfectly insulated vehicle, and there are probably numerous smaller conducted routes for energy transfer, but certainly not that fast and even more certainly not to 250F.

From way back and of course you ignored it:- "As advised before, you can factor in the heating power of the exterior shielding from radiated heat onto the inner hull, then onto the inner equipment and finally to the oxygen in the crew compartment. Then you can factor in that the Sun is only striking about 25% of the LM directly and a further 25% with incident radiation. Since all the metals used in the design are very good conductors, before you calculate the radiating effect of each of them inwards, calculate the conductivity to cooler parts of the continuous and linked layers in the shade."

 

Well done, but that wasn't my point(I didn't make it very well). The point behind why reflective objects wouldn't reach maximum temperature in a vacuum/on Earth is made up of the less obvious likelihood of a) the surface not being orthogonal to the light source b) not completely flat c) having connected surfaces that conduct and radiate d) the slower speed of absorption allowing c).

You missed this far more important request:-

Tell us all how a supposedly 250F crumpled layer of Mylar or Kapton, emitting 0.05 of its heat, manages to bring up the layer next to it, to a similar temperature. Then add 8 more layers!

 

Small correction. Not sure why I bothered, Descartes will ignore this anyway.