Ukraine civil war started 24.04.14 12-00.

The U.S. knows that, so what was Bidens purpose in encouraging this attack? Is the administration looking for an excuse to impose more sanctions on Russia in order to please certain constituents?

 

I will look at it when I have time. In the meanwhile I believe they are terrorists due to the reality that the are killing or imprisoning politicians or journalists who do not hold their position and all polls suggest that the majority prefer to remain united. Kiev offered referendum for far more autonomy including I think for federalism which I have read the people in the East, in the majority do not want.

Hence the people of East Ukraine are being held by dangerous people who say for instance that they will get no chance to vote and that they will tolerate no differences of opinion.

It is the responsibility of the acting Government of Ukraine to protect the people of the East. Of course that will bring Russia in. In that way the Romanian probably had the best concept of what they would need to do to keep their country together and going by the will of the people. Russia could not win in that situation.

By the way if you question whether I am right about the people's choice I would point out that Putin claimed he would not be taking over the East as only 50% wanted it. This was clearly an exaggeration. That would be way over enough for them to claim it was 80%. He also claimed 100% wanted it in Crimea and we know that that is not true and was a forced Referendum. The UN saying that the take over by Crimea which Russia has now owned up to having troops involved in, resulted in beatings, arrests and torture of those who opposed. The situation in East Ukraine is currently much the same.

http://www.gazeta.ru/politics/2014/04/23_a_6003217.shtml

The Guardian on murder and arrests of journalists

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/24/ukraine-murdered-council-member-vladimir-rybak-buried

 

The killing of a deputy is a severe crime. If the ones who killed him are from the side of rebels they should be isolated and prosecuted according to a law. But so far there is no proof from a decent source.

Then there was no point in resisting the local referendum. Then the current guys who call themselves 'government' could make up at least a law for such a possibility. But the law was not made.

Check your sources. THere is no freedom of speech curently so there is no sense in believing everything that is written or told in the news. Things that matter are not said but done. And what was done there to make things easy?
Imagine that the government in US was overthrown. People in DC sturmed into white house and the President fled to Kenia. All the world said that they don't recognise him as a President any more. FoxNews start telling hot stories about how the president lived and whom he slept with. The activists who seized power have cancelled all the laws about... (what is currently separating american society?) gay marriage and introduced a new chapter into Constitution that tells that the right to have any weapons including nuclear is an essential right of any american. Now imagine that They appointed governors to every region and the governor in California is the one that is strongly disliked. People go to gay parades and meet the newly founded patriotic organisations of armed Right Wingers who wear white clothes and name themselves "white warriors' or smth of that kind. Then people elect during the meeting the guy who is called a governor of California. They want him to represent them in the Parliament. After that he is arrested and kidnapped to DC. Once the protesters brought the weapons and sturmed the state administration, police refuses to cope with them and army doesn't want to shoot the people but the government uses all those who are ready to obey and start to use armors and planes against a 100 thousand populated town. Which side do you thing is the true side?

I think none. There are no good guys and bad guys. But there are interests and ability to make decisions. In the place of the guys that seized the power I would use the period only to make the elections. I wouldn't sign any document even if my own polls show that this is what everyone wants. I would make a part of my electional program signing of such a thing. Once I have a shortest unrest in a distant province I would meet every wish of the crowd provided there is no change of the law and regime. I wouldn't change constitution. I wouldn't cancel the laws. Maybe I will stop some of the laws and grant an amnesty to all the people involved to the coup from both sides excluding the murderers... from both sides. They want to leave the US and become a part of Japan? Fine. I am not against. But it should be the wish of the people. The people want to have families with pets and have an extra salary for every sex partner of different kind? Interesting initiative which is worth discussing... in a newly elected parliament according to a new law procedure. For now the bidget is tight. Sorry.

Did you hear of any of peaceful initiatives of the kievan junta? Not words. Actions. Did you? If you did I would really listen attentively, because I am reading every source for now and I haven't noticed anything. Federalism was proposed from Russian side and this initiative is greatly... criticized in the pocket press of kievan junta.

That doesn't look peaceful at all. Agree. But I would remind that this demand was not in the beginning. It started with peaceful demonstrations, when kievan media was trying to tell the world that there are just groups of russian agents in the east and no rebels.

I am glad you understand it. Tell it to Kerry please, because he is blaming our minister of foreign affairs that the ukrainian citizens of the east refuse to unarm the first.

This plan would work if you have people's support... But imagine that you don't have any support... Kievan leaders don't have support even from maidowners. They were whistling at them every now and then, which is over the Internet. I can post a video when people from Maidan were not happy with Klichko, Tyagnibok or Yatsenyuk if you wish.

True. What is happening now in the Ukraine is the civil war which was inevitable after the USSR collapsed. What happens is our national loss. And it will be a loss even if Putin is elected the President of Ukraine.

No it wasn't. He based his view not on the current polls published by kievan media though. He has his own sources.

The Crimea used to be Russian autonomous republic. It is really different. 83% of those who came to the referendum said 96% yes. So Putin is right with his estimations as the rest 20% either voted against or resisted silently (as kievan authorities asked them. To me 20% is a lot. But the will of the 80% outweigh any of the UN estimations.

And I didn't see any hostilities of the ukrainian and kievan type in Crimea. There were provocations but they don't look serious. Although I am not telling and Putin wasn't telling that everyone in Crimea supports Russia. It is the majority. Yes. It is a rightful decision and Putin couldn't neglect this referendum no matter what. Yes. I personally would agree to any sanction of the west if that is needed to respect the wish of compatriots. Yes. I would die for them if necessary. Yes. But I wouldn't say that Russia needs to drive off the crimean tatars and ukrainians from Crimea. I think that it is our task for the moment to do our best to make them feel home or to help them to move to the country they want. I would say that even a person who makes provocations is a subject of the law and there should no be any exclusions. So if the person is beaten and told the police and he has the evidence then he should receive protection from russian state. We shouldn't take example of kievan junta.

 

Actually they do want to Federalize, and less power for the government in Kiev, and this is what the junta will not agree with. Part of it would be to keep their own money, and not have it sent to Kiev and then distributed to whoever they please. This is what happened in Yugoslavia. Slovenia became sick and tired of supporting Kosovo, so it declared its independence. Of course breaking up Yugoslavia a traditional ally of Russia was to our benefit, so we could care less. Basically our double standards are appalling, and how can a nation be respected if it doesn't have some moral integrity?

As for the rest of what you wrote, I read non English speaking sources that are not part of the corporate medias, so they are nothing but our administrations lies to demonize Russia and sway the American people, much the way they tried to do with blaming Assad on the Chemical attacks. It ain't gonna work you know, no more than it did with Syria? We're just going to end up destroying another country, or at least we're trying to. Putin is too moral to tolerate civilians being killed in Ukraine like in Syria, so we're forcing Russia to march in and take control. I think the intent is to bog Russia down somehow.

According to a foreign source, the U.S. and E.U. are now black mailing Montenegro to stop its trade agreements with Russia, so it might turn into another Ukraine. Also Biden tried to convince Bulgaria to stop the South Stream pipeline which it needs desperately for its economy, and they have refused to do so. Besides that Turkish tanks have now advanced thirty kilometers into Syria on trumped up charges, so where's the outcry?

 

This is an interesting take on the situation by 'Moon of Alabama', and he's quite good. One thing is certain from what I have gathered, that it will be the Europeans who will suffer the economic hardships our sanctions will impose. Are we doing it intentionally?

The Russian President Putin talked of "consequences" but did not mention any specific means. The Russian military announced to renew some military training near the Ukrainian border.

This is all just minor public skirmishing. Kiev does not dare to do much more as that would give the justification for a Russian invasion. I do not believe that anyone in Kiev is interested in provoking such.

But people in Washington may be interested in provoking a conflict that involves Russian troops, later NATO and then all its European "partners". What better means is there when you want to hold Europe down, economically and politically, and when you want to prevent any Eurasian cooperation? A nice "little" war in Europe would also do wonders for the U.S. economy. Just keep it below the nuclear threshold and the U.S. will, in the end, be the winner of it all.

Let's just hope that at least some politicians in Europe see this obvious trap and manage to avoid it.

 

Unfortunately no longer. That was their demand last week. And for now the Donetsk republic was peoclaimed. The guys are fighting having no legal leader to talk to (for they were arrested). It's civil war from today no matter what politicians would prefer to regard it. I see no peaceful ending for it. The most strong and the luckiest would win in this war. The other side would lose. Any intervention will never end it. Not from Russian nor from NATO side. The peaceful days are over... The future will just tell what kind of war it is going to be a WW3 or just another civil among russians...

 

Biden is a clown. People like Biden and Hillary when she was Sec. of State didn't do anything but fly around the world throwing out billions of dollars to people who hate our guts. The whole damn thing is a waste of time and America has no vital interests anywhere in eastern Europe anyway. We need to stay home and take care of our own country which is in pretty (*)(*)(*)(*)ed-up condition.

 

I can say one thing for both Biden and Hillary, they're both sleazy and they lie to high heaven...which doesn't say much for our government.

 

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