VERY bad news from Brazil and its variants: worldwide threat

Thanks for trying my friend, but our government had/has little interest in practicality.

 

It's mystifying .. this refusal to close borders. The US and Europe/UK have behaved in such an unexpected way. We always thought of The West as wise and powerful, but you guys all just lay down and exposed your soft underbellies like frightened children. Truly bizarre, and incredibly sad, to watch.

This pandemic has revealed one of the (insanely high) costs of a culture which puts the individual ahead of the group. The West coped well with wars last century, because they happened before individualism had become ubiquitous. This is why The West is finished .. because all strength in unity is lost. Sacrificed on the alter of narcissism.

 

My only disagreement is that it isn’t really a collective/individual dichotomy as you describe. It’s actually the opposite. There are demographics that are 100% for the collective and care nothing for individual rights that oppose border closure. It’s the individualist demographic that WANTS government to carry out it’s legitimate function of border control. It’s mainly the collectivists that oppose managing the border.

 

That's all just part of the mix, so you could be right in that I've used the wrong terms. Ultimately it comes down to the State suggesting the solution (or rather, imposing the solution), and the citizenry being willing to join that fight. That's just far more likely in a culture which values social responsibility.

 

You are probably right that few value social responsibility. Even those that accepted masks etc. didn’t buy into social responsibility. If they had they would have been home a lot more and in public with their masks a lot less. The cool kids call it virtue signaling or something I believe.

You have to remember the US exists because it is/was populated with individualistic pricks, and “the West” as we’ve known it for at least 120 years would not have existed without the US. Every rose has it’s thorns. Some even smell of skunk....LOL

 

I don't think that the West has been a fake power all this time, I just think that we/they (I'm in the East, but effectively a Westerner) lost it to the vanities resulting from too many generations in safety and plenty. Whatever power the West once had was a result of national unity and stronger nationhoods. Europe blew that in accepting 'union' (an oxymoron), and America probably never had unity so much as plain old wealth - and the power that buys. I still think America is our last best hope against the Rising Dragon, but if you guys are determined to spiral down into chaos then we're truly lost. I mean, Europe is about as dangerous as labrador puppy these days.

It's hard to accept either way, for those of us raised on the idea of Western Empires as necessarily the best and strongest (for good or ill). It's like finding out Santa Claus doesn't exist. It's like the security blanket of Old Mother England and Uncle Sam have been taken of us and burned.

 

All good points. The dragon from the East is patient. Unlike European “fascists” and Japanese imperialists, it will weaken us until victory is assured. In fact, if open hostilities ever even happen, the outcome will have already been predetermined.

I am as disappointed as you are but I grew up expecting this to happen so am not surprised. It’s a bad turn for humanity—depressing to even think about the total ramifications.

 

I do believe that one day China will utterly annihilate the United States, as soon as they no longer depend on us for trade, their military becomes dominant and they manage to turn their currency into the world currency. China's clear desire is to become the sole world's superpower, and for this, they need to dislodge the current world superpower. And yes, in America we are complacent now, which will make the China's task easier. It would never have happened if China were facing the World War II American generation. As for individualism versus collectivism, while you are right that the collectivist ones are the ones against closing the border, individualism has had other detrimental effects on the pandemic. While the government of Japan can merely ask and 98% of their citizens immediately wear masks and practice all recommended measures of epidemiological control (resulting in one of the world's smallest outbreaks of Covid-19 if we can even call it an outbreak), over here we scream MY FREEEEEDDDOOOOOMMMMMS and mock a simple public health device like a facemask as some sort of impingement on our liberty. It's ridiculous, and we're paying a steep price for it, both in death toll and economic damage. And now many of the same types - mostly Republican males - don't want the vaccines either. Darwin Award.

 

But it's not just America ... Europe has failed also. It's the WEST - paying the price for the hubris of thinking millions of people could all work at cross-purposes. Every man for himself. Even the family has been abandoned. When you're all so disconnected from mutual obligation that you can't even hold a family together, there's no hope of nations doing so.

 

A side benefit of the inevitable is that those who sought the destruction of The West (from inside .. ie, Progressives), will be the first to implode under the restrictions of a society they don't even begin to understand. They're so infinitely short sighted that they won't realise until it's too late that they did, in fact, love capitalism and democracy as much as the next person.

 

There will always be trade offs when contrasting individualism and collectivism. The WW2 generation came together to defeat a common enemy, but they would not subscribe to the collectivism of today. Individualism of yesterday was tempered with a sense of moral duty to your fellow (individual) man. Today, collectivism is founded not on individual rights and duty to other individuals with intrinsic worth as individuals, but on intrinsic value only residing in the collective itself. It’s a bastardized collective that can never be as strong or as cohesive long term as the classical western values of individual worth. I think the fact we are all lamenting the weakening of western society, (what we all seem to agree is/was the most successful to date), is solid evidence the answers to our problems doesn’t lie in collectivism absent individual freedom/value.

Going back to the WW2 comparisons, consider the consequences of Japanese compliance with wishes of government. Lack of individualism and suppression of independent thought made Japanese imperialism possible—a phenomenon claiming more hash marks for Darwin than Covid ever will.

I could go on about the positive attributes American individualism has had on ensuring our own military (while not perfect) has not been a danger to civilization like the imperial Japanese military. But I will just point out the demographic we criticize on Covid compliance is also the demographic volunteering to serve us in the military disproportionately compared to the more “collectivist” demographics.

At the end of the day, perhaps we pigeonhole or stereotype too much. In reality those we perceive to be too individualistic in some respects are actually serving the collective in other ways and venues. And conversely, those we see as collectivists likely have strong individualistic tendencies as well that just aren’t as obvious.

 

Yes, I agree. Killing the goose that laid the golden egg so to speak.

 

I'm probably in the progressive basket, but I can't help but agree with you. The main problem is patriotism, as an Australian, has turned into a jingoistic tacky kind of thing. I can't in my heart celebrate something that base. Nor can I locate a viable alternative, certainly not one that unifies.

The only unifying quality in a society does appear to be anticipation of war. It's a pity.

 

China won't annihilate anyone, it's not the way they do things. Even when they were utterly vanquished by the Mongols their answer was to turn their conqueror's grandson into their richest Emperor. Other nations rise and fall, China abides and in the end, all of her most pernicious enemies have become Chinese themselves, gladly by their own hands. The entirety of human history can be viewed as that of China and some outliers without being far wrong. That may be coming again and given history's lessons, it shouldn't be bad at all.

 

Centerfield, I hope you don't mind the increasing off-topic curve ball. If we start a new one on China the usual suspects might ruin the magic!

I am not so comfortable with the Chinese as you, given how they handle business in Australia (ruthless capitalism and hierarchy - but admittedly this might not represent the country). To emphasize, these are contemporary Chinese business types direct from China, not second, third gen Chinese from within Australia.

My main point: isn't there a danger surely with modern China. I probably lack your historical insight, but from the perspective of developmental psychology, which is closer to my area, the Chinese growth resembles the adolescent stage. Or, at least, a Grandmaster in the background with too many adolescents to yell over. [The West, for comparison might be suffering mid-life crisis and its many cynicisms]. They are giddy with the economic splendour - and I wonder if traditional culture that you might be alluding to is surely buried below the ruins of cultural revolution, which is buried under the economic effervescence atop. Between the public disintegration of our Sino-Austral relationship and private conversations with recent chinese immigrants (mostly doctors and medical and lower middle-class tourists) I sense strong nationalism and, frankly, white-hot anger at being the gentle Confucian whipping-boy for various empires, one after another. I feel like leadership may need to direct this outwards to diffuse the internal stress, when the average chinese begins to realise they are still in thrall. This could be a real problem for the world.

So open question; who is in charge in China and to what extent? Are they business types, Confucians/Artists/Intellectuals/Old Conservatives, pragmatists, nationalists, some kind of novel fusion? I feel like I have my finger on the pulse of the average chinese working and middle class but can't find reliable information about the elites. Is there a plan or are they themselves learning on the fly?

 

Wow, excellent analysis and you are right. I stereotyped. You were nuanced. Well done, sir! I take back what I said, and subscribe to what you said!

 

I used "annihilate" metaphorically. Then I said "dislodge." It's more like the latter than the former.

I'm not sure if it's not bad at all. I think the Chinese are quite cruel. When they dominate the world, I'm sure some people who were against the United States, will remember with nostalgia and regret the good days when America was the dominant power.

 

How under counted do you suppose
survivors are.
Like those who never felt sick.

I live in an endemic West Nile Virus area
ALARM! ALARM!
Then "they" found lots of people show evidence
of having had "it". And a comparative few, die.

YES. Covid has killed people.
Just as West Nile Virus or even influenza.
So What?


Moi
The mistake was not investing more in anti viral medicines
Like Tamiflu for influenza. Acyclovir for herpes & shingles
Lots currently on the shelf, untested.

Quarantine ​

 

Agree. State Collectivism is always a disaster. It MUST be voluntary - culturally derived. A people driven moral imperative, rather than a dictate. That can only come from an unbroken history of inherited obligation. We weathered the wars because we still had that inherited obligation. It was only after we started teaching our kids that they had no obligation to family, community, or nation - that we lost it. We actively teach our kids to cut ties and reduce personal responsibility - in the hubris of thinking that it equates to some kind of freedom. The minute starvation was declared a thing of the past, we let go of all that preserved us in the bad times.

 

I can't say this strongly enough: They have NO IDEA of what they wish for, when they wish away Western capitalism. They have no comprehension that the globalist 'socialism' they seek will mean the most conservative existence imaginable. All of the freedoms which have allowed them to be 'blue haired gender fluid SJWs' (to invoke the hackneyed trope) will be lost - replaced with a mandatory arch conformity predicated on the ancient mores they hate.

 

Yep. We have plenty of examples of the failure of dictated collectivism. And of the failure of neglecting personal responsibilities. Spot on.

 

I can't agree with you on patriotism.

I think obligation to place is crucial in a world of seven billion. And I believe the need for it is greater than our private discomfort with transient localised corruptions of the idea.

I also think that 'anticipation of war' is the whole point of the exercise. We don't preserve our strengths and resources for the good times, we preserve them for the hard times. The good times take care of themselves - and the better weathering of the hard times means our good times are more frequent and productive. We can't do nothing to weather the hard times, then expect to weather the weaker good times which result - yet that's exactly what we do expect. We're compelled by First World vanities to abdicate from obligation, but demand obligation in response when **** goes pear shaped.

 

I believe most Western Govts are just struggling along behind us, trying desperately to hold together all the broken pieces of nationhood and social responsibility. Their job is impossible. We make it impossible.

 

Hmmm. Never really looked at it that way....but it makes sense.

 

On that, I can't blame any Govt for 'failing'. They're constrained by democracy, for good or ill. The people will never allow them to do what they need to do to ensure an improvement in the human condition.

Edited to add that I don't think Govt needs to go totalitarian to improve the human condition. If anything, it needs to take a more hands off approach. Let the chips fall where they may, in the hopes it reignites our will to live.