What would we be (or do) without pain and suffering?

If your god is now capable of seeing things from mankind's perspective he should be able to acknowledge that his entrapment into being "born sinners" was a violation of basic human rights and he needs to abolish the entire concept of "original sin" and make reparations to everyone who was duped by his nefarious perfidy.

 

Nope, not really, but what does that have to do with anything who cares about adventure without worry and suffering I likely would be happy doing some light work, mounting my wife, tending the children and having fun it wouldn't be an issue.

But think about this the advancements in civilization would have been likely different not worse, art and crafts and botany and animal breeding might be big and a space program not needed without pain and suffering.

 

'New covenant' is a term interchanchable with New Testament. Its just another way of saying it that I think adds a denotion of the concept that with Jesus came a 'polar shift' in Judaism (which is why its called Christianity instead).

The Old Testament (where detractors of Christianity like to cite all the hate and violence) isn't even technically Christian doctrine. 'Eye for an eye' has been raplaced with 'turn the other cheek.' Vengeance replaced with peace. Law with forgiveness. 'Love thy neighbor' is now the underlying emphasis.

Thats the 'new covenant' I refer to.

Its not my fault if you're uninformed on the dynamics of Christianity. The 'goal posts' you're referring to were moved 2000 years ago, and not by me.

 

You are correct. I did not mean to infer that positive consequences should have negative effects. I was imprecise in my wording and apologize for causing confusion.

To clarify: I was speaking only of negative consequences.

 

I dont see it as 'simply the result of a unnecesssrily cruel creator.'

I see it as the result of a universe with laws that define reality. Just as God cannot make a mountain so big that God cannot move it, neither can God create a curious, creative, Free Willed being without creating a need for it to be curious and creative, lest that being eventually Will itself into lethargy and inactive stagnation... which we may still Will ourselves to do, but not without negative consequence.

 

We're not finished advancing. In fact, there seems to be a movement among many of the most elite of us to reverse our advancement.

Unfortunately, we are plagued by a small group of 'humans' who actually enjoy inflicting suffering, and God's hands are tied by a respect for His greatest gift to us (imo)- Free Will and Self Determination.

Its up to US to end the suffering of our world.

 

Would you presume that the creator of true AI would understand what it 'feels' like to be a machine?

 

IMO thats exactly what He did (though I would phrase some of the specifics differently, but w/e).

Theres a passage in The Bible that says that during the three days when Jesus was 'dead' He went and 'preached to the imprisoned' (if you want the verse, Ill look it up for you). The common explanation is that Jesus, for some reason, went to a nearby Roman prison and comforted some of His followers imprisoned there... I call BS. I think Christ either went to Hell to offer those 'imprisoned' there a way out (this is far more a 'defeat of death' than the 'official' version), or He goes to preach to all of us after we die but before we 'go' anywhere, and makes The Truth of the dynamics of our soul, the afterlife, the reality of God known to us, whereafter we make an informed decision regarding our fate.

I have been told of a passage in The Apocrypha (which I really need to read) where Jesus supposedly spells this out to one of his disciples at some point, and adds with a wink and a nudge to not preach it, as many would not follow Christ's example without the threat of Hell looming over their shoulder. Which is probably why it was not included in the 'official Bible.' Then again, one could logically presume that if Jesus would've known that His Word would be handed down through the ages, that this tidbit would innevitably 'get out', and that He said it because He DOES want everyone to know. So... make of that what you want.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
OK, forget goalposts.

Now explain:

In WWI Jews were murdered and tortured. Things were done to them that were so terrible that some people never had never heard of such torture and inhumanity.
That's the "adversity" you keep referring to as if it's only being hungry or having a cold, as if you have no idea of what some people's "adversity" truly consisted of.



Did that stop them from being murdered and tortured in WWII ?

Did humans advance after that and it stopped?

Millions of children face "adversity" in the sex slave trade every day and have since humans began.

Why hasn't it stopped? Why didn't we "ADVANCE" and learn from it and stop it ???????


NO, children STILL are tortured in the sex trade ...STILL.


Did torturing people in the Inquisition to make them become Christian stop torture?


Why do you post something but then not answer questions about it??

OHHHHH, so we haven't finished "advancing"....ya, right... so torturing each other is OKEY DOKEY.

DO tell me when we will "finish" advancing....and WHY would we "finish" advancing....

And DO tell me again why we need such horrible atrocities (whether you think they're atrocities or not they ARE) .
I think your ridiculous argument is that if we have ""adversities""( CUTE word for the horrors we inflict on each other and for children being raped and tortured)
we will find a cure for these adversities YET you cannot tell me why NONE of it has stopped.

Baloney it's a "small group""...I think you have no knowledge of the history of the world....the mean people are NOT a small group...and humans being humans they can change from a good guy to a bad guy the second they're threatened in any way.

His hands are tied? And he being what ?..... mean and/or weak can't do a damn thing about what disasters his creations are?????

WHAT!

A. We didn't create the suffering, god should take some personal responsibility.

B. What are we waiting for? (That old lack of knowledge of world history rears it's head....suffering has been around since humans have been around and NOTHING has alleviated the suffering)....WHEN does this happen....??????????????


You guys sure can come up with the BS excuses...

 

Ironic that you accuse others of biblical ignorance. Technically speaking there are 7 covenants listed in the bible.

The original covenant was the one in the Garden of Eden.

Then there was the the promise not to wipe out all life on the planet again after the flood.

The supposed "new covenant" was the promise that the Jews could dwell in the "promised land" forever with some other covenants relating to promises made to Abraham and obedience/disobedience.

Then there is the one you are waffling about which is supposed to have occurred at the last supper.

And just because it is the bible there are even those who believe that the "new covenant" is supposed to happen at the '2nd coming".

That you are unaware of all of these various "new covenants" says volumes.

And no, none of them are a "term interchanchable [sic] with New Testament".

 

The bible contains various different definitions for "hell" and "damnation" and what happens when you die. Needless to say some are contradictory but none more so than that they give lie to the concept of a "loving god".

To punish anyone with eternal pain and suffering is about as sadistic as it gets and the antithesis of what it means to love.

If someone is to be punished after trying to lead a life helping others and doing whatever they can to provide aid to their fellow man just because they failed to accept a particular piece of religious dogma then that makes a complete mockery of the concept of "divine justice".

And yes, according to the same dogma an infant who dies immediately after being born is condemned to hell because it was a "born sinner" that never "accepted redemption".

As far as I am concerned anyone who "accepts redemption" under the threat of "eternal damnation" is doing so only out of fear of the alternative. If you need threats in order to make people believe in an allegedly "loving god" then that is self defeating nonsense.

So once again there is nothing logical or rational about any of this. Fear of hell is a purely emotive basis for faith.

 

Is it not rather comforting to know this nasty monster is but the boogyman under the bed and not anything to actually worry about? That Hell is as real as Middle Earth? That the Jesus Zombie is just a walking dead scene?

 

Definitely so from an individual POV.

One definition of hell is having to spend eternity surrounded by those who are "praising the lord".

 

What happens if someone intentionally hurts someone else you love? Can you really love that second person without doing something to the first?

Let's say you're the father and one of your children rapes and tortures your daughter. (just to use an extreme example)

Now, I believe if you go back and read through you'll find the underlying message is that each of us is not as blameless or prone to innocence as we think.

 

I see.....so by your description it would seem the way to deal with a child rapist is to kill everyone in the country it occurred in. I would have hoped this omnipotent "God" had better aim.

 

Yeah...my favorite reply when some Christian tells me I'm going to hell:

"As long as you wont be there....It sounds good to me."

 

You are fallaciously presuming that I am setting myself as the judge and the torturer for the crimes of the offending child.

That is NOT my role as a loving parent.

There are 3rd parties who can impartially adjudicate and administer the appropriate penalties.

Your deity pretends to be a parent, hanging judge and medieval torturer all rolled up into one sociopathic bundle of contradictions.

Obviously as a jack of all trades your god is master of none.

 

Great group of posts but I liked what's said here especially.

 

Uh, ...please , where's that advancement thingy...you don't even know that machines can't feel...

 

That's just more baloney.....If a being is curious and creative, uh, it's curious and creative...

But I see what you're saying..

.......you think curiosity and creativity need the instigation of horrible, you might say "gawdawful", suffering and unbelieveable hardship[p (NONE of which YOU have ever suffered) ......

5 year old children sold into the living hell of the sex trade need that so they become curious creative because without that hell on earth they might become lethargic and inactive...

RIGHT? That IS what you're saying.....the creator, according to YOU, is NECESSARILY cruel to spur us on to things we wouldn't need if there was no suffering....do you READ what you write?
\

Gee, sounds like no matter what, child sex slaves do they are meant to suffer for god's pleasure...


Care to explain why your "god" made the Jews suffer so much.....revenge?, nastiness?, hate ?, For PLEASURE???

 

Yes, you may stop responding to me but that doesn't stop the obvious.....that you just can't address facts.

In WWI Jews were murdered and tortured. Things were done to them that were so terrible that some people never had never heard of such torture and inhumanity.
That's the "adversity" you keep referring to as if it's only being hungry or having a cold, as if you have no idea of what some people's "adversity" truly consisted of.



Did that stop them from being murdered and tortured in WWII ?

Did humans advance after that and it stopped?

Millions of children face "adversity" in the sex slave trade every day and have since humans began.

Why hasn't it stopped? Why didn't we "ADVANCE" and learn from it and stop it ???????


NO, children STILL are tortured in the sex trade ...STILL.


Did torturing people in the Inquisition to make them become Christian stop torture?


Why do you post something but then not answer questions about it??

 

Would it be 'sadistic' to allow those who choose Hell to do so?

 

Not pleasure. Not all suffering is necessary. Some is built in to our environment to keep us advancing. This we can eventually overcome through innovation if we advance properly.

Some is the result of evil people. This we can eventually overcome through enlightenment.

Neither is going to be easy, nor is either a guarantee if we give up trying or give in to the evil people.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
That's just more baloney.....If a being is curious and creative, uh, it's curious and creative...

But I see what you're saying..

.......you think curiosity and creativity need the instigation of horrible, you might say "gawdawful", suffering and unbelieveable hardship[p (NONE of which YOU have ever suffered) ......

5 year old children sold into the living hell of the sex trade need that so they become curious creative because without that hell on earth they might become lethargic and inactive...

RIGHT? That IS what you're saying.....the creator, according to YOU, is NECESSARILY cruel to spur us on to things we wouldn't need if there was no suffering....do you READ what you write?
\








Gee, sounds like no matter what, child sex slaves do they are meant to suffer for god's pleasure...


Care to explain why your "god" made the Jews suffer so much.....revenge?, nastiness?, hate ?, For PLEASURE???

Once again you didn't answer those inconvenient questions but you did confirm what I think you mean:

"""""".......you think curiosity and creativity need the instigation of horrible, you might say "gawdawful", suffering and unbelieveable hardship[p (NONE of which YOU have ever suffered) ......

5 year old children sold into the living hell of the sex trade need that so they become curious creative because without that hell on earth they might become lethargic and inactive...

RIGHT? That IS what you're saying.....the creator, according to YOU, is NECESSARILY cruel to spur us on to things we wouldn't need if there was no suffering....do you READ what you write?""""""





Did torturing people in the Inquisition to make them become Christian stop torture?


Why do you post something but then not answer questions about it??










You: """Some is the result of evil people. This we can eventually overcome through enlightenment""
UH, WHEN does this "enlightenment " take place? HOW may of your god's creations need to suffer horrible adveristies before we become "enlightened"....did you notice IT ISN'T WORKING??????

We wouldn't have to suffer such atrocities IF THEY DID NOT EXIST......why can't you understand that simple logic?

Do you have a degree in philosophy or have you read a book on it? that would explain the lack of logic...

 

Fallacious blaming of the victims.

They are already condemned to hell as "born sinners" by your god so they never had any "choice" in the matter.

Your god is the sadist for condemning the innocent who have done nothing wrong to eternal damnation.