What's happened to all the manufacturing jobs?

Well...your workers mentioned above joined unions and demand $75K/year plus benefits so they are no longer affordable business options.

I know first-hand that Anglo Americans refuse to do the jobs you mention. Some say increase the pay by 300-400% and they will take the jobs but this is also BS because most Americans will not last one day doing any form of hard manual labor. IMO when people talk about 'manufacturing jobs' they mean middle-class paying jobs that can be done by those with limited skills or education in climate-controlled environments.

However, I think it would be great if the nation encouraged and assisted people in rural areas, the few who would do the work, to get into farming or producing something...small businesses...cottage businesses...

 

You got it. Forget waiting for our "hero" to show up and save us. We have to take it in our own hands and fix it ourselves. No one else is going to do that for us and the sooner we realize that, the sooner we can get started.

 

Do you really think the work of an iceman (not needed today) or a milkman was more difficult than that of a FedEx driver?

Blacksmith? We have people mounting tires, cutting and selling firewood for more income, slaving away in coal mines, and numerous other such hard jobs. Do I reject your low opinion of the willingness of Americans to work hard.

 

yes we will immediately be poorer thanks to the higher prices but more importantly our industries will be protected from competition and thus quickly become second and third rate, not world class at all. It is national suicide.

 

I agree. Take away all the welfare and other entitlements and Americans will go to work fast and be better for it. Right now Mexicans get $150/day for picking tomatoes. Pay Americans $200-300/day for picking and all Americans can support families again.

 

Well...no matter what you believe...fact is the US would not have all the immigrants, legal and illegal, taking jobs if Americans wanted those jobs. Why do we have legal and illegal immigrants in American jobs...because Americans won't do the work thereby leaving a labor void? Eliminating illegal immigrants is as simple as having Americans take those jobs! And, I'm a farmer and I hire labor all the time, and never once in decades has a white-bread American shown up to do this work...never! Americans whine that 'others' are taking their jobs and this is total BS...if an American worker cannot compete for these jobs over an immigrant worker then the problem is not having jobs...the problem is American people not wanting to work...

 

What's wrong with good ole competition...the spirit of competition? The US cannot win everything but for those things the US truly desires if we cannot get what we want then we need to give up and move on to something else. Why do you think businesses make the decisions they make regarding location, labor, materials, infrastructure, tax policy, regulations, energy, etc.? It's complex and there is NO conspiracy to eliminate American workers or earn massive profits or any of the other evil things many believe happens in corporate America. What happens when you place tariffs? What happens in months or years when others outside the US continue to whip our ass...just keep raising tariffs?

It is only 'national suicide' if the US is too dumb and lazy to put forth the competitive spirit...

 

That is an incorrect statement. Allow me to correct it for you....

"fact is the US would not have all the immigrants, legal and illegal, taking jobs if Americans would work for those wages".

There is some truth to that corrected statement, but even more true is the statement that the US would not have all the illegal immigrants if the laws against hiring them had been enforced.

 

I agree.

I see no reason whatsoever that, for any job including farm-hands, employers cannot make a request to the State Dept. of Job Openings (along with the necessary credentials), which is then posted at Embassies and Consulates in South and Central American countries (in Spanish).

Then workers make application for the job, and I doubt that "interviews" are necessary. If the workers came, did their work, and then returned, then they would have a higher probability of semi-permanent seasonal work (and they would pay their appropriate American taxes). If the jobs were non-seasonal, they could ask for a more permanent status (after an appropriate period of time and background checks both in the US and their homeland) by petitioning for it. Then, after more time, they could - if they so desired - apply for American citizenship.

What's so difficult about running just such a "migrant employment system"? (Note, an "immigrant" is a naturalized citizen of any country - a "migrant" is not.)

And migrants who do not seek work in the US by-the-rules are blacklisted, returned to their countries and will never obtain a legal permit to work in the US ...

 

Wages are created mostly by supply and demand of labor and what the business model can justify. I'm a farmer and I pay $20/hour for labor and $25/hour for supervisory labor. Please tell me what labor rate is required for white-bread Americans to work on my farm??

IMO you are in La-La-Land if you believe that white-bread Americans will take all the jobs of illegal and green card immigrants should we remove all of them from the picture. Who do you actually believe will fill thousands of jobs in the Central Valley of CA? How much more will consumers pay for fruit and vegetables and nuts as you demand wages double and triple?

 

Think about reality!

First, there is farm work 365 days a year and migrant workers move from area to area to seek this work. While migrant workers are here, over years and decades, many of them meet and marry Americans, or have kids on US soil. And you think all the time they are here they just live in tents...they rent apartments and homes and buy homes, and buy cars, and spend billion$ in the US economy. Many of them pay federal income tax and ALL of them pay sales and excise taxes. Many of them are not interested in becoming citizens.

Lastly, how worthless is any American who cannot compete with illegals and green card workers?

 

Regardless of the above, the process I outlined is still workable and regardless of where they work. If they don't work, they have no business remaining in the US because they have no legal justification. If they have a migrant-worker's visa, they can move around, as long as they remain identifiable for purposes of taxation. (Iow, just like Americans.)

If they are not interested in becoming citizens (and I disagree with your "most are not interested" because you cannot possibly know) then then process is better than the no-process today. Which has led to a Very Large Group of illegal migrants who have no legal right to reside in the US.

One should need a work-permit to work if you are not a citizen of the state in which you reside.

 

You have danced around my comments but you haven't refuted or even challenged one of them.

 

Never said they would. You did.

I have just outlined a process, based upon demand-for-labor by farmers like you that is "orchestrated" by federal authorities - since the government is the only entity with the legal right to do so. (In fact, they presently issue and control visas for the foreign hi-tech people brought in nowadays.)

 

First, I never said 'most'...I said 'many' and I do know because I'm a farmer and I live and work in an area highly populated with legal, illegal and green card immigrant workers. Those who work for me are close friends. Some of them tried to become citizens but the process for them was too complex and time consuming and the wait was years. Many of them fear giving information to the government for fear of reprisal. And it makes no difference if all of their concerns and fears are well-founded or not...it is their perception!

If you truly believe in work permits then instead of deporting people and causing fear start handing out work permits were applicable. However, whiney-bably so-called Americans can never accept this because they claim these people are taking jobs from them!

 

Please tell me what labor rate is required for white-bread Americans to work on my farm??

 

Your quoted rates should do it but it would be determined by real world efforts to obtain employees. First you would have to eliminate illegal immigrants to find out. But I have no problem with legal migrant farm workers doing the work as long as government supervises compliance with relevant labor laws. Then the market would determine what you need to pay.

 

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/us...utput-has-doubled-in-three-decades-2016-03-28

American manufacturing has doubled its output over the last three decades while reducing the workforce by some 80% over the same period. Automation has reduced the need for the human workforce. Those jobs are not ever going to exist again.

 

There seems to be a problem with the GDP numbers.

Back during the 50's, 60's, 70's and some what the 80's, before globalization, the Trilateral Commission and NAFTA the GDP was based upon the manufacture of durable goods not on how many burgers were flipped or insurance policies written or toilets that were cleaned or on how many ears of corn were grown or how many six packs of beer that were sold or on how many shoes or Levis were manufactured but based upon on durable goods that were manufactured.

Durable goods being anything manufactured that will last for more than a few years like cars, trucks, airplanes, ships, guns, tools, washing machines, refrigerators, televisions, etc.

One can not compare the GDP of today with the GDP of 40, 50 or 60 years ago.

 

Well...with the rates we are paying there never are any white-bread Americans seeking this work...never!

Why can't an American compete for these jobs? Why must we eliminate all migrants to find out which Americans will work?

Government never 'supervises'! Companies take it upon themselves to follow government policy and rules...

 

Wrong, wrong, wrong and irrelevant.

Moving right along ...

 

When's the last time you bought a horse-'n-buggy to get around?

Of course jobs change, but the GDP is simply an arithmetic aggregation of Consumption plus Investment plus Government Spending. Regardless of how those three elements change over time, the collection of the sampled data has not.

And that's how we get GDP, like it or not.

Period.

 

Some people MUST GAVE the last word. You've had yours.

Feel better now?

Moving right along ...

 

This is a debate forum.

I have responded with argumentation that suits me. If it doesn't suit you, we just "move right along".

It's not the end of the world - just the end of an exchange on a debate-forum ...

 

Look, I live in farm country in France. The spring wheat has been planted all around my house last December and is now sprouting green shoots. Amongst those plots of land are grape-vines for making wine.

I know farming. I also know the need for labor in farming.

Don't take people for fools when you don't really know them and their circumstance ...