Where Did the Trinity Teaching Come From?

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
Jesus was only able to get access to the holy spirit after it proceeded from Jehovah. In other words, Jehovah gave him permission. This also proves that the holy spirit is not a person and that it is not CO-EQUAL to Jehovah because God is constantly in control of it and sending it here and there. At no time in the Bible do we see the holy spirit do anything without Jehovah—who owns it—sending it forth. It is never independent of Jehovah because it's something that belongs to God. It's an extension of God's power, his active force. Notice some more examples below from the scriptures you downloaded from the Trinitarian blog the other day.

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
I've been telling you all along that the holy ghost/holy spirit BELONGS to Jehovah God and that it's an extension of his power. So of course it will take on the masculine reflexive pronoun "himself," being that Jehovah is masculine.

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
You did it again, Elijah: You (and the source you copied this verse from) have ignored the context and cherry picked a verse that seems to be saying what you've chosen to believe. The context is found at verses 11 and 14, as follows.

"{11} If, now, the spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he that raised up Christ Jesus from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive through his spirit that resides in you. {14} For all who are led by God's spirit, these are God's sons." (Romans 8:11, 14)


Elijah, what's the identity of "him that raised up Jesus from the dead"? Doesn't the Bible identify that person as Jehovah God?

"This Jesus God resurrected of which fact we are all witnesses." (Acts 2:32 – New World Translation)

"This Jesus has God raised up, of which we all are witnesses." (Acts 2:32 – King James Version)


Now that you have the context for Romans 1:26, I encourage you to go back and read Romans 1:26 with the eyes of understanding. Hopefully, you will see why it uses the masculine reflexive pronoun when speaking of God's holy spirit.

 

I've been answering your questions, but you haven't answered mine. Where does it say Jesus was an angel?

And btw I believe you're cherry picking verses to support your belief, but it doesn't.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:

You can't be serious. Look at what I told WanRen above in the first blue paragraph. I informed him that the Bible says God allowed the pre-human Jesus to assist him in creating all other things, including other angels. I went so far as to quote Colossians 1:15-17 in my answer to WanRen, which you quoted. Look at what it says in Colossians 1:16-17. It says Jesus assisted Jehovah in creating all other things. Colossians 1:15 says Jesus is the "firstborn of all creation," which equates to "Jesus was himself created by Jehovah." Created beings cannot be equal to the one who created them. That's why Jehovah is the only God referred to as "Almighty," because he is all powerful and he is the only God that should be worshipped.

 

Wow! you are really out of touch, indeed you have your own bible. You have not answer me; ARE YOU A CHRISTIAN OR NOT???

 

Is Jesus an angel???? Thats as straight forward of a question as I can ask.

 

For the answer, see post #118 on page 12 of this thread and notice my post that you quoted there. Read my first blue paragraph therein where I told WanRen: "The "us" and "our" at Genesis 1:26...."

 

So where in the Bible does it say Jesus was an angel?

 

The Christian Bible never said Jesus Christ is an angel or a minor god. On the other hand you claim Jesus Christ is an angel and a minor god, please show us where in the Christian Bible that said Jesus is or was an angel?

Even the book of Mormons as corrupted as it is, it also indicate or implies the existence and the One relationship of God the Father, Holy Spirit and Jesus Christ as the Son of God; Three nature One Being = Trinity, the Trinity that Mormons failed to recognize instead they gave them different and separate characters splitting up God's nature into three gods just like the pagans three separate gods.

Christians = Begotten, not made = Son of God, Jesus Christ.
Mormons = begotten and made = minor god Jesus Christ.


Catholic Apostle's Creed
I believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

I believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Begotten Son of God, born of the Father before all ages. God from God, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven, and by the Holy Spirit, was incarnate of the Virgin Mary and became man. For our sake, he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered death and was buried and rose again on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of Life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
The word HIS is a possessive pronoun, Elijah. That's something we learn in English grammar class. You are ignoring the context within the very same verse you're quoting from. Context refers to the surrounding words, verses, and chapters.


Who was it that "turned Himself to become their enemy"? The identity of that person will tell you whose holy spirit was grieved. He is identified three verses above where you quoted from.

"The loving-kindness of Jehovah I shall mention, the praises of Jehovah, according to all that Jehovah has rendered to us, even the abundant goodness to the house of Israel that he has rendered to them according to his mercies and according to the abundance of his loving kindness." (Isaiah 63:7)

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
Why are you even quoting this verse? It debunks your position that the holy spirit is a separate person. It clearly says right there that it's Jehovah's holy spirit.

 

Post 132 has a question posed to you..........

 

So now you are saying that the Holy Spirit is God, good now all you have do is add Jesus Christ who is also God = God (Jehovah) + Holy Spirit + Jesus Christ = One God (Trinity)

 

Um, you have a problem with christianity because it affirms previous religious systems?

Wait, you have a problem with christianity in general?

Good God--- who cares, give love. I think God is big enough to love you back.

 

So in pagan times there was a trinity of gods. That must make the Holy Trinity false then they are only copying their pagan predecessors. This assertion is absurd, for one in Christianity there is not 3 gods but 1 God. Also just because pagan religions have something in common with Christianity does not mean christianity in anyway is false. if you want to know where the teaching of the Holy Trinity came from it was through the Church, from oral tradition and what they knew from Scripture, in it's wisdom and in it's authority the Church declared this to be truth.

 

duplicate deleted

 

Yeah - the Church also at one time declared that the earth was flat. There's no evidence to believe that the "Church" plagiarized/copied- adapted , the concept of a three headed god from earlier belief systems, perhaps even Hinduism's Lord Brahma.

click for bigger picture.

View attachment 12978



http://www.lotussculpture.com/images/brahma_styled.jpg

 

where does it say Jesus was the son of a god ?

 

Regardless of how many times fictitious nonsense is refuted, and of how easy the facts are to find, there will always be those who repeat the myth. There will even be those who cling to the myth in the teeth of evidence to the contrary. It's unfortunate.

 

There is one God who has manifested Himself by Jesus Christ, His Son, Who is His eternal Word.-Ignatius of Antioch AD95

For this is how Christ addresses us through His Holy Spirit: Come my children, listen to Me, I will teach you the fear of the Lord.-Clement of Rome AD96 First letter to the Corinthians

Believe on our Lord and God, Jesus Christ and His Father that raised Him from the dead.-Polycarp of Smyrna AD130 Letter to the Philippians

For being, at once both God and perfect man likewise, He gave us sure indications of his two natures: of His Deity by His miracles during the three years that elapsed after His baptism, of His humanity, during the thirty similar periods which preceded his baptism, in which, by reason of His low estate as regards the flesh, He concealed the signs of His Deity, although He was the true God existing before all ages.-Melito of Sardis AD170 Fragments

The Son… is the first offspring of the Father. I do not mean that He was created, for since God is eternal Mind, He had His word within Himself from the beginning, being eternally wise.-Athenagoras of Athens AD177 A Plea for the Christians

The three days before the luminaries were created are types of the Trinity, God, His Word, and His Wisdom.-Theopholis of Antioch AD180 Letters to Autolycus

Keep always in mind the rule of faith which I profess and the Son and the Spirit are inseparable from each other, and then you will understand what is meant by it. Observe now that I say the Father is other, the Son is other, and the Spirit is other. This statement is wrongly understood by every uneducated or perversely disposed individual, as if it meant diversity and implied by that diversity a separation of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.-Tertullian AD216 Against Praxeas

For we do not hold that which the heretics imagine: that some part of the being of God was converted into the Son, or that the Son was procreated by the Father from non-existent substances, that is, from a being outside himself, so that there was a time when He did not exist.-Origen AD225 Fundamental Doctrines

For it is the Trinity alone which exceeds in which not only the temporal but even the eternal may be understood. It is all other things, indeed, which are outside the Trinity which are to be measured by time and ages.-Origen AD225 Fundamental Doctrines

The Word alone of this God is from God Himself, wherefore also the Word is God, being the being of God. Now the world was made from nothing, wherefore it is not God.-Hippolytus of Rome AD225 Refutation of all Heresies

For scripture as much announces Christ as also God, as it announces God Himself as man. It has as much described Jesus Christ to be man, as moreover it also described Christ the Lord to be God. Because it does not set forth Him to be the Son of God only, but also the son of man, nor does it only say, the son of man, but it has also been accustomed to speak of Him as the Son of God. So that being of both, He is both, lest if He should be only one He could not be the other. For as nature itself has prescribed that he must be believed to be man who is of man, so the same nature prescribes that he must be believed to be God who is of God. Let them therefore who read that Jesus Christ the son of man is man, read also that this same Jesus is called also God and the Son of God.-Novatian AD235 Treatise on the Trinity

Arius is born. AD250

It is blasphemy, then, and not a common one, but the worst, to say that the Son is in any way a handiwork… but if the Son came into being, then there was a time when these attributes did not exist; and, consequently, there was a time when God was without them, which is utterly absurd.-Dionysius of Rome AD262 Letter to Dionysius of Alexandria

There is a perfect Trinity, in glory and eternity and sovereignty, neither divided nor estranged. Wherefore there is nothing either created or in servitude in the Trinity; nor anything super-induced, as if at some former period it was non-existent, and at some later period it was introduced. And thus neither was the Son ever wanting to the Father, nor the Spirit to the Son; but without variation and without change, the same Trinity abides for ever.-Gregory the Wonderworker AD265 Declaration of Faith

Arius is ordained to the priesthood and begins to teach. AD313

The council of Nicea convened. There is no question that Constantine wanted a unified church after the Council of Nicea. But he was no theologian, nor did he really care to any degree what basis would be used to forge the unity he desired. Later events show that he didn’t have any particular stake in the term homoousios and was willing to abandon it, if he saw that doing so would be of benefit to him. Constantine made a ceremonial entrance, and according to Eusebius of Caesarea, “it was evident that he was distinguished by piety and godly fear. And first of all, three of his immediate family entered in succession, then others also preceded his approach, not of the soldiers or guards who usually accompanied him, but only friends in the faith… This was indicated by his downcast eyes, the blush on his countenance, and his gait… As soon as he had advanced to the upper end of the seats, at first he remained standing, and when a low chair of wrought gold had been set for him, he waited until the bishops had beckoned to him, and then sat down,”
Alexander of Alexandria originally presided over the council but resigned his position because he believed it to be a conflict of interests, since he was also the chief accuser of Arius, the heretical views of whom were on trial. He was replaced by Ossius of Cordova.
Some 22 of the bishops at the council, led by Eusebius of Nicomedia, came as supporters of Arius. But when some of the more shocking passages from his writings were read, they were almost universally seen as blasphemous. In spite of his sympathy for Arius, Eusebius of Caesarea adhered to the decisions of the council, accepting the entire creed. The initial number of bishops supporting Arius was small. After a month of discussion, on June 19, there were only two left: AD325

 

ALTER2EGO -to- MAXIMATIC:
Notice that I highlighted in red and bold print every single name that is within your text quoted above. Not only were these people influenced by polytheism (worship of many gods), in that the Romans had a long history of polytheism prior to adopting Christianity as the state religion of Rome, but all of their expressions are based upon their personal philosophies, their self-promoting arrogance, and their insistence on ignoring what's written in the Judeo-Christian Bible. Not surprisingly, nothing they wrote is supported by a single verse of scripture in the Bible. Concerning the philosophies and traditions of men, the Bible warns us:

"Look out: perhaps there may be someone who will carry you off as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ;" (Colossians 2:8 )


"{6} he must not honor his father at all. And so you have made the word of god invalid because of your tradition. {7} You hypocrites, Isaiah aptly prophesied about you, when he said, {8} ‘This people honor me with their lips, yet their heart is far removed from me. {9} It is IN VAIN that they keep worshipping me, because they teach COMMANDS OF MEN as doctrines.’" (Matthew 15:6-9)

~***~​

 

ALTER2EGO -to- ELIJAH:
Jehovah created two different types of intelligent creatures in his image—meaning they have his ability to express (1) love, (2) justice, (3) wisdom, and (4) power. No other living creatures are capable of expressing those attributes and no other living creatures are in God's image except these:

1. Angels

2. Humans


Concerning Jesus Christ, the Bible says (and keep your eyes on the words in reverse print and underlined within the quotation):

"He is the image of the invisible God, the firstBORN of all CREATION;.." (Colossians 1:15)

DEFINITION OF "BORN": "Born means having been given life."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/born

DEFINITION OF "CREATE": "To cause to exist; bring into being."
http://education.yahoo.com/reference...y/entry/create
http://www.yourdictionary.com/create



"For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life." (John 3:16)

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten



Now, if you can't put two and two together and figure it out—by means of your God-given intellect aka your ability to use logic—that's not my problem. I can't do anybody's logical thinking for them.

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
I previously answered this question for WanRen. To see what I told him, read Post #83 on Page 9 of this thread. Here is the weblink. Just click it with your mouse, and it will get you there quickly.
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/247420-where-did-trinity-teaching-come-9.html

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
I previously answered this question for Elijah. To see what I told him, read Post #14 on Page 2 of this thread. Be sure and answer the three questions that are found within Post #14. Here is the weblink to get you there quickly.
http://www.politicalforum.com/religion/247420-where-did-trinity-teaching-come-2.html

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
You ignored the entire context of that scripture and focused only on the last part of John 1:1 where it says "and the Word was God." Not only is this rendition a translation blunder aka error, the translators who rendered it as such are Trinitarians, and so they did that deliberately.

John 1:1 is not talking about a trinity. You are ignoring the context within the very same verse which begins with the statement: "In THE BEGINNING was the Word." That word "beginning" immediately disqualifies the one described as "the Word" as also being Almighty God. Why? Because the Bible says Almighty God is ETERNAL.


DEFINITION OF "ETERNAL":
Eternal means not having a beginning or an end.
http://www.yourdictionary.com/eternal


"Before the mountains themselves were born, or you proceeded to bring forth as with labor pains the earth and the productive land, even from time indefinite to time indefinite you are God." (Psalms 90:2 – New World Translation)


"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God." (Psalms 90:2 – King James Version)



The very next statement in John 1:1 is also a tip off that this is not talking about a trinity. There, it says: "and the Word was WITH God." Taken literally, that would amount to God being with himself—which makes absolutely no sense.

The point of the last portion of John 1:1 is what is causing your confusion. There, it says: "and the Word was God." That portion of the scripture is merely acknowledging that the Word—Jesus Christ—is a god. The word "god" is a title that is given to powerful beings. Below are five Bible versions which correctly render that last portion of John 1:1.

(1) Harwood, 1768: "and was himself a divine person"

(2) Newcome, 1808: "and the word was a god"

(3) Thompson, 1829: "the Logos was a god"

(4) Goodspeed, 1939: "the Word was divine"

(5) Moffatt, 1972: "the Logos was divine"

 

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
Look at the portion of your above text that I bolded with red. Then notice the definition below.

DEFINITION OF "BEGOTTEN": "Begotten means something created something else or someone fathered a child."
http://www.yourdictionary.com/begotten

ALTER2EGO -to- BF SMITH:
You ignored all of the red flags in verse 29 and instead went straight for verse 30, because it satisfies what you've chosen to believe. Notice the context below, and keep your eyes on the words in bold print within the scriptural quotation.

"{29} My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. {30} I and my Father are one." (John 10:29-30)

Look at the words above that I red flagged. Jesus is repeatedly giving credit to someone else—indicating that he and the Father could not possibly be the same person within the fabricated "godhead."



I will now quote from further in the same book of John and show you what Jesus meant when he said "I and my Father are one." (Remember, context includes surrounding chapters.) I want you to keep your eyes on the words in bold print within the quoted scripture.

"{20} I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; {21} in order that they may ALL BE ONE, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order the world may believe that you sent me forth. {23} Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one." (John 17:20-22)


Now let me ask you this rhetorical questions: Is Jesus saying that all his disciples will become one person in combination? Logic tells us that's not the case and that instead Jesus is referring to unity of purpose aka being in full agreement. Yet, when he uses the exact same terminology with reference to himself and his heavenly Father, Trinitarians jump on that and insist that it's proof of a 3-prong god.

 

There is nothing in Genesis 1:26 that say what you’re saying. And when it says Jesus is the first born from the dead it is talking about His resurrection.......Jesus is the first human being to attain glory. There is a big difference between the word born and created.....the two are not the same thing.

Greek

Born: gennaō - (genos); to procreate (properly of the father, but by extension of the mother); figurative to regenerate :- bear, beget, be born, bring forth, conceive, be delivered of, gender, make, spring.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Greek

Created: ktizō - (ktaomai) (through the idea of the proprietorship of the manufacturer); to fabricate, i.e. found (form originally) :- create, Creator, make.
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Hebrew

Born:yālad - to bear young; causative to beget; to act as midwife; specifically to show lineage :- bear, beget, birth ([-day]), born, (make to) bring forth (children, young), bring up, calve, child, come, be delivered (of a child), time of delivery, gender, hatch, labour, (do the office of a) midwife, declare pedigrees, be the son of, (woman in, woman that) travail (-eth, -ing woman).

— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

Hebrew

Created:bārā - (absolute) to create; (qualified) to cut down (a wood), select, feed (as formative processes) :- choose, create (creator), cut down, dispatch, do, make (fat).
— Strong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary

It says nothing about whose Holy Spirit......it says what it says......they lied to God.

The Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father and the Son, but it is still the one God. The word that is translated God is from the Hebrew word elōhîm....it is not singular but plural, meaning more than one at least. It’s the same word that is translated gods when referring to pagan gods, it just that when its applied to the real God the s is not needed, because God Himself says He is one......three distinct personalities in the one God.

Yes.