where hate speech leads

In November 1992 Léon Mugesera urged about 1,000 followers of a Hutu political party to rise up and resist the Tutsi “cockroaches,” whom he warned would cut Hutu throats.

At the time, it was concluded that the speech was an incitement to murder. a warrant for Mr. Mugesera’s arrest was issued and he fled Rwanda. The murder of 800,000 Rwandan Tutsis and moderate Hutus followed in 1994

Mugesera's words had an outcome for the victims of Hutu violence, many of whom lost their lives in the bloodshed we now refer to as the Rwanda massacre, but for almost two decades Mugesera believed that the west would defend him from facing the consequences of his words.

Now, that is no longer the case.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/mugesera-returns-to-rwanda/article2311566/

I wonder when hate speech on a similar level will be regarded as a crime in the west when Muslims are the target.

If so, you'd have to wonder what whether sites such as this that allow hate speech to flourish - under the guise of "freedom of speech" might have to face consequences.

 

Why limit yourself to "Muslim" hate speech? You don't even need to scratch the surface to see anti-semitic hate speech all over the place. Or does hate speech only count when the other person is spewing hate towards a group you support and is to be commended when it is against a group you don't like or don't care about?

Regardless, it is already a crime to incite people to commit a crime. Source

 

Probably long before you consider hate speech by muslims on a similiar level to be a crime.

 

I am more critical of genuine anti semitism on this forum than most of those who refer to critics of Israel's policies as "antisemites".

in actual fact, the amount of genuine anti semitism on this forum is relatively low ... to be honest, I have seen more racism against black people.

however the extreme lies and filth that is spread about muslims on this forum is a disgrace.

it may well be a crime - but if you look at what Mugesera actually said, it is no worse than what many people on this forum say about Muslims.

 

hate speech is hate speech, regardless of who says it and who the target is.

criticism of policy, however, is not hate speech.

 

This forum is an eye opener for usa free speech since the site itself is american run.

The only difference i can see so far with other versions of free speech, that americans are not punished for being grossly anti muslim and allowed to slur their people without censorship.

 

Write to the Moderators and ask for an explanation .
I did several times and eventually was given the biggest Kop Out explanation possible to imagine .
Find out for your selves . You are not going to believe the site policy .
So , unless you want to take legal action --- a waste of time , which they realise -- you simply accept the club rules or move on .

 

Great reply thank you. Yes this forum rules "or lack of them" is plain to see by all. Very interesting to view usa free speech in all its glory.

I have no idea why it hasnt been shut down but until that happens, an enlightening experience.

 

If you follow the trail of Hate … it will always lead to Fear!

It’s the last resort for Cowards on the road to irrelevance.

 

"Criticism of policy"???? Is that what you would consider Bin Ladens 1998 Fatwa to be? Criticism of policy?

http://www.mideastweb.org/osamabinladen2.htm

Praise be to God, who revealed the Book, controls the clouds, defeats factionalism, and says in His Book: "But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the pagans wherever ye find them, seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)"; and peace be upon our Prophet, Muhammad Bin-'Abdallah, who said I have been sent with the sword between my hands to ensure that no one but God is worshipped, God who put my livelihood under the shadow of my spear and who inflicts humiliation and scorn on those who disobey my orders. The Arabian Peninsula has never -- since God made it flat, created its desert, and encircled it with seas -- been stormed by any forces like the crusader armies spreading in it like locusts, eating its riches and wiping out its plantations. All this is happening at a time in which nations are attacking Muslims like people fighting over a plate of food. In the light of the grave situation and the lack of support, we and you are obliged to discuss current events, and we should all agree on how to settle the matter.

No one argues today about three facts that are known to everyone; we will list them, in order to remind everyone.

First, for over seven years the United States has been occupying the lands of Islam in the holiest of places, the Arabian Peninsula, plundering its riches, dictating to its rulers, humiliating its people, terrorizing its neighbors, and turning its bases in the Peninsula into a spearhead through which to fight the neighboring Muslim peoples.

If some people have in the past argued about the fact of the occupation, all the people of the Peninsula have now acknowledged it.

The best proof of this is the Americans' continuing aggression against the Iraqi people using the Peninsula as a staging post, even though all its rulers are against their territories being used to that end, but they are helpless. Second, despite the great devastation inflicted on the Iraqi people by the crusader-Zionist alliance, and despite the huge number of those killed, which has exceeded 1 million... despite all this, the Americans are once against trying to repeat the horrific massacres, as though they are not content with the protracted blockade imposed after the ferocious war or the fragmentation and devastation.

So here they come to annihilate what is left of this people and to humiliate their Muslim neighbors.

Third, if the Americans' aims behind these wars are religious and economic, the aim is also to serve the Jews' petty state and divert attention from its occupation of Jerusalem and murder of Muslims there.

The best proof of this is their eagerness to destroy Iraq, the strongest neighboring Arab state, and their endeavor to fragment all the states of the region such as Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Sudan into paper statelets and through their disunion and weakness to guarantee Israel's survival and the continuation of the brutal crusade occupation of the Peninsula.

All these crimes and sins committed by the Americans are a clear declaration of war on God, his messenger, and Muslims. And ulema have throughout Islamic history unanimously agreed that the jihad is an individual duty if the enemy destroys the Muslim countries. This was revealed by Imam Bin-Qadamah in "Al- Mughni," Imam al-Kisa'i in "Al- Bada'i," al-Qurtubi in his interpretation, and the shaykh of al-Islam [not further identified] in his books, where he said "As for the fighting to repulse [an enemy], it is aimed at defending sanctity and religion, and it is a duty as agreed [by the ulema]. Nothing is more sacred than belief except repulsing an enemy who is attacking religion and life."

On that basis, and in compliance with God's order, we issue the following fatwa to all Muslims

The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

This is in addition to the words of Almighty God "And why should ye not fight in the cause of God and of those who, being weak, are ill- treated (and oppressed) -- women and children, whose cry is 'Our Lord, rescue us from this town, whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from thee one who will help!'"

We -- with God's help -- call on every Muslim who believes in God and wishes to be rewarded to comply with God's order to kill the Americans and plunder their money wherever and whenever they find it. We also call on Muslim ulema, leaders, youths, and soldiers to launch the raid on Satan's U.S. troops and the devil's supporters allying with them, and to displace those who are behind them so that they may learn a lesson.

Almighty God said "O ye who believe, give your response to God and His Apostle, when He calleth you to that which will give you life. And know that God cometh between a man and his heart, and that it is He to whom ye shall all be gathered."

Almighty God also says "O ye who believe, what is the matter with you, that when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of God, ye cling so heavily to the earth! Do ye prefer the life of this world to the hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For God hath power over all things."

Almighty God also says "So lose no heart, nor fall into despair. For ye must gain mastery if ye are true in faith."

 

ummm ... is anyone here defending Osama bin Laden?

and exactly what has he got to do with the topic?

seems a bit of a red herring ... have to wonder why you threw it in there .... do you feel that criticism of hate speech is criticism of you?

 

Whenever there is liberty, some people will use it in a manner that you disagree with. It is better to accept that as a result of liberty than to fight to limit that liberty. After all, you very likely are using the same liberty in a manner that person doesn't agree with.

 

I am sure the victims of the Rwanda genocide would agree with you.

 

Liberty?

I have no idea what you mean. I originaly stated this forum lax view with censoring anti mulsim bigots. Which since i joined seems a real problem of lack of enforcement.

 

The same free speech that allows anti-Muslim bigots to say what they want allows anti-American bigots like dixon76710 to spew false propaganda like he did above.

Who should decide what limits on speech we should have here?

 

It was a question. I understand why you would rather not answer.

 

I would respond in kind, but would be summarily banned. And the quote was accurate. Your claims of being false are meaningless.

 

ok - if I criticise policy, and at the same time c all for people to attack people whose nation applies those policies ... I'm moving into hate speeck territory ...

for example - I frequently criticise Israel's policies, and I frequently criticise US international policies ... FWIW I also frequently criticise my own governments policies ... but you would not find me arguing that these policies then justify attacks on Israeli citizens, american citizens, or against people who support policies I don't agree with.

if I did say your policies give Arabs, or colombians, or anyone else .. the right to attack any americans they meet, that would be hate speech.

Bin Laden used his criticism of the US (which was often well founded) as a basis for justifying attacks.

that tends to fall pretty much in the category of hate speech - it certainly is incitement to violence.

I didn't answer your question originally because I thought an intelligent adult would understand the difference between criticism of policy and hate speech.

Due to this I believed that you were simply trolling.

If you weren't, I apologise ... and my commiserations.

 

I am not sure that I agree with you on this.

I have very rarely seen the virulent hatred that is expressed by some of the more extreme anti muslim bigots on this forum. There have been a few strong anti semitic posters, but these have rarely lasted long, and often they have been criticised by many of those who are so called "anti semites".

I rarely see those who label me as an anti semite addressing these kinds of posters.

in addition to the often extremely vicious posts by muslim bigots, there is also a tendency to start threads that consistently misrepresent muslims as well.

this is also part of "hate speech" - as it was applied to Jews for centuries, especially in the lead up to the Spanish Inquisition and in Nazi Germany

 

Misogynists and homophobes must stand the storm of free speech. America is different than other countries in this respect. It's completely unique in the world on matters of free speech. No other people have the same freedom of expression.

 

I am not so sure on that.

having the freedom to aggressively insult others for expressing their views can in fact lead to a curtailment of that person's right to free speech.

When Thomas Jefferson was talking about the right to free speech, he wasn't talking about the right to verbally attack people and make them victims, he was talking about the people's right to express themselves against injustice, and protest in order to prevent them from being victims.

many modern americans, including yourself, seem to be confused about this.

history education would help to alleviate this level of ignorance.

 

Getting back to the OP, I must ask, what, exactly was the "hate speech"? Was it the "rise up and resist" part, or the "cockroaches" part? Or the "they will cut your throats" part? Just wondering exactly where the call to murder was located in this speech.

If, hypothetically, someone wanted to cut my throat, and those of people I was associated with, would it be hate speech to suggest rising up and resisting having our throats cut, so long as I did not call them cockroaches?

 

Hey darling, when did you go to law school? Check it out youngster:

http://www.supremecourt.gov/opinions/10pdf/09-751.pdf

The only speech in America which can be censored or serve as the basis for liability, civil or criminal, are words which create a clear and present danger of immediate violence or which constitute fighting words which cause immediate violence.

In other words one must act in person face to face to incite violence. The spoken or printed word devoid of a call for immediate violence is totally protected. No exceptions.

America is totally unique in this respect. The Dior designer in Paris who was prosecuted last year for saying something good about Hitler couldn't have been prosecuted in the US.

Calling Muslims misogynistic homophobes is totally protected. In the same manner depicting the Pope as a child molester is totally protected.

Your country of Australia does not have the same robust protection for freedom of speech. Australians have lesser rights to freedom of expression.

 

That's what i'd like to know. After all, Jesse Jackson said the same thing to blacks in late 2011 regarding fighting against whites.

Additionally, do you have any sympathy for those christians who are being hacked to death by muslims as we post? And what about our presidebt. Is he liable committing hate speech for telling his supporters to bring a gun to the fight? To get up in his opponents faces? And George Soros for sponsoring the OWS movement and their acts of violence and the promise of more this spring and summer?

 

Not sure if you are asking me or the OP writer, but I have sympathy for anyone being hacked to death, tortured, or otherwise violated, regardless of their faith (or race). But I am also a firm believer in "sticks and stones", and as long as things stay verbal, I am willing to tolerate a lot. People who whine about hate speech are, IMO, weakening the right of people to speak out. The "chilling effect" chills everyone.