"Who's gonna pay for Medicare for all?" is either stupid or disingenuous

You say this over and over again. Your whole direction is one of punishment. You dont have to keep saying it.

If a person needs healthcare, their contribution to America is certainly NOT going to be improved by denying it.

If a person needs food, their contribution to America is NOT going to be improved by denying it.

And, YOU do NOT know why people have found themselves in the position they are in. In the last election, we found people in serious trouble because our economy tanked, leaving people unemployed. We found people who lost jobs due to the decline of manufacturing in the US as well as the strong increase of automation. We have people who have gone bankrupt due to healthcare costs - meaning they can't afford healthcare, obviously. We have people who have injuries or other deficits that prevent employment in jobs that earn enough to pay healthcare costs. We have jobs that we need done that don't pay enough to cover healthcare costs - you can't buy healthcare insurance on $15/hour income, especially if you have dependants.

Your idea that those who need help are degenerates whose plan is to live off the government is total BS.

And, your "punshment" idea is just plain medeival. We do NOT consider physical torture as a legitimate form of punishment. Besides, there is NO CHANCE it will change the behavior of people mentioned in this post. Threatening torture isn't going to make someone pay for something they can't afford.

 

You're going all over the board here. We as a nation aren't being bankrupted by healthcare costs, though there are certainly a lot of individual bankruptcies due to health events in people's lives.

I agree that there could be ways for us to reduce the cost of healthcare. But, that's not going to cause our corporate capitalists to agree to pay for the healthcare of individuals who aren't able to pay.

There is a fundamental issue with capitalism - it strives to maximize profit. It doesn't care if you are sick. It cares if you can pay.

 

OK. I CONDEMN China. Totally. They are totalitarian, they steal our patents, they are communist (outside of their economy), they emit more greenhouse gas than any other nation.

Now what?

Did that solve a problem you have?

 

The problem with progressives still exists. You have a lot of convincing to do within your party.

 

Your assumption is that government run healthcare is superior. That is ridiculous.

 

Of course! Capitalism is great at creating wealth and solving a lot of problems, too. It's hard to find an alternative, since we have some power to keep capitalism from totally killing us.

I would dispute the "working class" thing to some extent. It makes it sound like specific people somewhere are getting screwed.

 

The working class pays for the welfare state in Scandinavia. Do you know what the corporate income tax rate in Sweden is ???

 

Take a look at Belgium, the Netherlands, and some others.

All first world countries pay less than we do, yet they serve all their citizens.

Saying "ridiculous"isn't an argument.

 

Do you know what you don't have to pay for in Sweden?

 

Of course, the lambo was hardly serious. And there is a comparison to food in another way. Nature writes the principals that have allowed millions of species to thrive for millions of years, and none of them have poisoned the earth, destroyed it's resources or felt compelled to kill off others without reason, they have not had health care, psychologists, government, lawyers- none of the crap we use to try and keep ourselves acting rationally. I'm saying nature does the job one hell of a lot better than we do- we are without a doubt, the worst thing to ever happen to planet earth. So- I think it's obvious mother nature knows things that we do not, and we should be paying attention to the rules of that have made all that success happen. We may be able to postpone the consequences of breaking those rules- but I don't think there's a snowballs chance of avoiding them in the long run.

Among a few other basics, nature says- If you don't hunt, you don't eat. Basically, that once you are grown, you had better take care of yourself. Unlike humans, nature doesn't allow the lazy the careless or foolish to breed. We do of course, and that is something that even Darwin took note of saying that it would come to do us great harm. Nature isn't being cruel, it's just not wasting time or effort trying to convince those who can't cut it to change their ways.

I think we need to find a balance between unrestricted compulsion to save everyone no matter what, and a system that encourages people to do for themselves. Now as a person diagnosed with a deadly cancer at a point in life when I was broke and living in a storage shed, I do understand the need for medical care. I needed some extensive surgery- quickly. What I did was explain to my doctor, surgeon and hospital that I was dead broke and asked if we could agree to a plan. Lowest cost possible, and a time payment plan. I think they were so shocked that a person with no money would actually do that, they were pleased. The surgeon looked at me, and said- could you llive with $250? That was his fee- 80% reduction. The hospital matched it. We agreed- and I kept my word. My mother had a severe ankle break at age 8, never treated right. Developed Osteomyelitis (bone infection) which lasted until she was 45. Had 26 bone operations on that leg. Skin grafts to cover an open wound, the didn't take- had to dress that leg every day all through my childhood. Came down with encephalitis (brain infection), was comatose for more than a week and we were told she was going to die- three times. However she recovered, and lived to be- 97. Now my parents never had health insurance- but they worked running their own little store- 14 hours a day. Paid all her bills all those years, and still made a good life and home for my brother and I. They taught us to work- among many other qualities. Took me a while to put it all together, but I did, just as they did, and both brother and I have done very well because of the things we were taught, especially the values.

Strong people make strong nations- weak people simply can't. Today we are promoting weakness, not strength, and we are seeing that openly from a great many politicians and "educational" institutions. When things get tough, a lot of people simply turn to government to bail them out, or give up and lay down on the sidewalk, sleep under a cardboard box. That will continue to increase. The ratio of strong people to weak people is slipping dangerously, and that is a formula for disaster.

I know how to show people how to be strong and independent- and happy to do it. But people have to want to learn that, and most will take the easy path at every opportunity. I know that if we continue to provide and expand that easy path as we are today- we are going to run out of those strong people, and then everybody will be in the same kind of trouble- but there will be no one to save them.

Helping all who ask for it is stupid; nobody wins. Helping those who need and deserve it- is both noble and helpful to all. It's the choice between giving a hand-up and a hand-out. We don't seem to be able to the difference; know when we are helping- and when we are enabling.

 

My ridiculous comment with regard to government controlled healthcare is based on studying the issue. I’ve documented the Republican reforms required to improve the pre ObamaCare (again which only increased Medicaid enrollment which is government run healthcare) US healthcare system.

All US citizens have access to the US healthcare system. Governments always spend less than consumers. How many people live in Belgium and Holland ???

 

Working class Taxpayers pay for everything via taxation generated from their capitalistic economic system.

Your post is silly.

 

No, the Lambo is a GREAT example, as it shows where capitalism shines.

We aren't nature. We are a civilization. Withing a civilization, people take care of each other. All civilizations have taxes that go to important aspects of people withing the civilization thriving.

I do not see ANY justification for using food and healthcare as weapons against people who are not managing to produce adequate income within our system to pay the full load for survival. For many, poverty is a temporary state. For many it is not a choice. In the cae of healthcare, survival can be seriously expensive, thus causing bankruptcy even for those who are solid working contributing citizens.

I would encourage you to teach people.

I would absolutely block you from using denial of food and healthcare to American families as a punishment for lessons you fail to teach.

 

Healthcare is a per capita issue. It doesn't cost more per capita simply because there are more people. In fact, a significant population means greater expectabiliy in terms of costs.

Republicans haven't proposed any plan. And, that's the only thing I'd be interesting to read.

 

Heard of food stamps and Medicaid ???

BTW between the months of Oct 13 and Jun 15 the US government paid out $2.6B in food stamps to dead people. That is a rate of ~ 11% paid to dead people.

 

That's not an answer.

Stuff paid for by the state through taxes is suff that individuals don't have to pay for directly.

Did I REALLY need to explain that to you?

 

You are claiming that a system for 10,000,000 people can be extrapolated to a nation of 330,000,000 people plus 20,000,00 illegal aliens.

The Republican reforms are well documented and provided by me in this thread.

 

We cut administration to the bone and that allows people to take advantage.

The same goes with the IRS. We decrease IRS funding and more people get away with cheating.

We cut policing and investigation and more people get away with illegal behavior.

Surprise surprise surprise!

We can't hire enough to make it perfect. We try to find an economical level and hope it gets passed in congress.

 

it is absolutely an answer. There is no such thing as free healthcare.

 

So now you advocate for an expanded bureaucracy such as the U.K. in which 2.5% of the total population works for the NHS.

What is the fraud rate in the U.K. ?? Estimates are as high as 10%.

 

I don't know of any "the Republican reforms".

So far, there have been over 55 votes to attempt to kill Obamacare with nothing to replace it.

 

Free healthcare? Where are you headed with THAT.

Healthcare is a for profit industry in America. There are not for profit hospitals, but they aren't free either.

 

YOU picked the UK. You lose!

 

Look upthread.

Thanks to the freedom caucus ObamaCare is still with us although Trump has removed the individual mandate penalty/tax.

 

I’m pointing out that there is no free healthcare. That is a fact.