Why is there evil in the world? (my thoughts and logic)

Salvation is that you get rewarded instead of punished for a life that included many sins and mistakes. There isn't much accountability here. The idea of purgatory isn't biblical. But I do like the idea of purgatory, so much that we can just replace hell with purgatory.

 

So-called "evil" exists within this world because life exists. One cannot be had without the evil. Short of a cataclysmic event that wipes out all forms of life everywhere, across the entire globe, that which is deemed "evil" will continue to exist indefinitely.

 

Most Christians have at least one person they haven't properly forgiven, but that doesn't mean nobody can get to heaven. According to Christianity, you need faith in Christ and to put in a good effort, not a perfect effort. So you don't have to perfectly forgive everyone to get to heaven, but you have to try.

Forgiving someone only because they suffered isn't true forgiveness. Its just being appeased by revenge and suffering and is a very ugly thing. Rather than make people suffer to help Christians "forgive" people, Christians should instead take the time to work on their issues. They should understand that making people suffer doesn't help anyone and that vengeance isn't satisfying or fulfilling. Also, they should understand that they did some bad stuff too and they will have to suffer too by their own logic. The truest forgiveness is unselfish and doesn't rely on other people getting hurt.

God does a memory wipe before he sends us to earth and the concept of reincarnation involves memory wipes as well. As long as the victim consents to a memory wipe, the ethics of it should be fine and is definitely preferable to torturing wrongdoers. A healthier path that actually helps the victim to grow is to get to know the wrongdoer and learn to really forgive.

Also, maybe there are times when you shouldn't forgive. Maybe its ok to be upset at someone who did you wrong. If they are still bad people, being upset at them helps you avoid getting hurt by them again. Not forgiving has been a great way for many women to leave abusive husbands.

 

Well, we can just get some idea from this thread how complicated this all is, or could potentially be.

And it seems like we can't really have any simple in-depth discussion because bringing up anything will involve going down two or three other deep rabbit holes.

There are numerous different possibilities, and each of those is contingent upon numerous other concepts, and each of those concepts are as well, and so on...

To try to logically pick this all apart and organize it, especially in a methodical way, would be very difficult.

 

Yeah, I think we got sidetracked on heaven and hell when we were supposed to be talking about the problem of evil. One problem that could be brought up is that many people end up pretty broken at the end of their lives and don't really benefit that much. Maybe things would have been better as a more structured test and learning experience. Or at least we could keep our previous memories of a past structured test, and this is more of an in-field test. God also made the animal kingdom really brutal, and he did make our brains and therefore some of our darker tendancies.

 

I'm not going to quibble with you. You have your own ideas based on your intellect. Your idea of reincarnation equates the human soul with those of animals and insects. To me, there is no comparison. We just don't agree.

 

My idea is that we would be reincarnated only as humans. We would also keep the memories and experiences from past lives so that we can continue to learn or at least have them subconsciously as instincts. That way, we can continue to learn and grow. Once you have become the best version of yourself, you go to some kind of heaven. Just because you screwed up in your first life because you were abused as a child, doesn't mean you get punished for all eternity.

 

I find your understanding completely misses the point. Perhaps if you studied scripture without a preconceived intellect of your own, then you would understand the Holy Character of God.
Forgiveness does not equate to "forgetting". Forgiveness is releasing the violator from any bitterness toward him. You still remember and take necessary precautions to avoid a recurrence.

Sounds like a good idea. You can become god and implement your plan.
To much who is given, much is required. For one to overcome child abuse..... great is the reward. Not all of those victims have to become reprobates, and they don't. Human nature looks for excuses all the time. You might even say, "My Dad frowned at me a lot so I am going to rob banks". No, Christians always strive to improve on what they have been given. We are individuals and God knows every hair on our head. I know there are Christians that seem to think our group will be judged as a "collective", but Jesus never swang that way. He looked at individuals and understood their heart. I read abou tthe character of King David, and sometimes I thought he was deserving of hell. God knew something I didn't. He could see his heart. David suffered great heartache for his mistakes, but God only judged his heart.

 

And I keep waiting for one of you in one of the many discussions to actually provide some evidence of the God claim.

Why does your God never leave any physical proof of his existence?

 

I would argue that forgiveness might have a much deeper meaning, in this afterlife context.
If you remember that part in Christ's prayer "Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those that trespass against us".
But the original word actually more closely translated as "debts" rather than "trespasses" or "offenses".

I think there might be an implication there that those who commit wrongs against us are, in some supernatural sense, "in debt" to us.
In those old times, that would have carried the implication that they would be punished until those debts were completely paid off, since there were debtor's prisons.

Forgiveness could be more than just a mood of heart, it could also be the releasing of someone from supernatural punishment they will suffer in the afterlife, for the wrongs committed against you.


There are a couple of gospel passages that could help support this concept:
Matthew 5:26, Luke 12:59, the Parable of the Unforgiving Servant in Matthew 18:21-35

 

Well here's how you start Jet.....look all around you. The evidence is here. It doesn't start and end with you or what you have between your two ears. There is a far greater purpose than that. When you can humble yourself, though ever so slightly........you will begin to see the proof of the existence of God. You might even begin to hear His voice.

 

Very good!

 

I can't see the Easter Bunny. Should I stop believing? And the fact that air exists can be demonstrated by science. How does science demonstrate a supernatural God?

Addressing your earlier post. Voices in the head are not likely God. Let's put it to the test. Ask the voice in your head what the last 5 numbers of my Social Security number are and then tell me the answer. If you're right, the voice may be God. Otherwise your claim of a voice is not evidence of God. Rather, the voice is likely from your brain to your brain.

And a claim that because we have an amazing world, therefore there is a God demonstrates the argument from ignorance fallacy.

 

Sorry....I put away childish things.

 

It is only a dilemma to stupid people. Freewill means ability is given to humans to both reject God and to do evil. It is actually a science of statistics and probabilities. By mathematics it means there will be evil in this world. God's ultimate goal is to achieve an evil free Heaven, not earth.
All left then it's all about legitimacy, if God chooses to ignore legitimacy to destroy evil at any point, He then doesn't need Jesus to save to world. He can simply chooses to save the world without Jesus doing anything. He didn't do so simply because doing so is not legitimate by Law. Jesus is thus said to come to fulfill the Law, such that humans can be saved legitimately in accordance to Law. In a similar situation, God chooses to destroy evil only lawfully in two instance. First is at the time of Noah, as no humans have hope to pass the judgment of Law (which is applicable to angels as well), Law thus will give God the right to destroy mankind as a whole. However by Law God can save humans through a series of covenants without humans being judged by Law, the set of Law which is applicable to angels as well. In order to do so lawfully and legitimately, Jesus is crucified as a justification of Law.

The second instance is the Final Judgment, where angels will be judged by Law with humans judged by covenants (such a judgment of humans is justified by the blood of Jesus). God can thus use this instance lawfully and legitimately eradicate evil once and for all, thus a Heaven can be built (you are simply too arrogant to assume that God's purpose is to build an earth while earth is just necessary step for evil to show up completely and to be destroyed openly and lawfully and legitimately once and for all). In a nutshell, Satan and his angels can only be destroyed legitimately through the legal process known us the Final Judgment. In the meantime, by Satan's own freewill he can use his ability in full to keep humans under his captivity. God's job is to design a series of covenants as an open standard used in the Final Judgment to save His sheep in the end.

 

Sorry....I put away childish things.

An excellent response viewed primarily by people that don't understand in this life many of us live by "faith".......simply because we humbly admit we don't have all the answers but we seek the One that does. Those that feel they have the answers are consigned to live with their answers.

 

I'm backtracking a few posts here and further explain something that has been in my prayer life. I am going to pretend you really care about what I have to say, so just bear with me.
Not going to bore you with scriptural addresses because God has placed them in my heart.....but I want to express why the Scripture says "we will be like him because we will see him as he is." It also says that this life is "like looking through a smokey glass". In other words, we don't see clearly. Sure, we have made great technological advances, especially in the fields of medicine and computers. I find it completely amazing! All that being said, it doesn't begin to compare how living cells are made out of mere minerals, not even to mention how the various minerals come into existence.

It also says in the Word, "the just will live by faith". Though we all see through that smokey glass, there are those that are content to live with that. They will make do with what they see and any clarity they gain, they will attribute that to themselves. It feeds their pride.

The "just" acknowledge the clarity will come when we shed these flawed bodies and dwell in the presence of the Lord they have clinged to by "faith".

Think about it. Faith will be absolutely done away with on that day. We will see through a crystal clear glass because we will see Him as He is! Those who rejected Him through their own "brand of faith" will get what they longed for......a life consigned to that smokey glass where they will always want more. It will seem like fire and brimstone because they will never be satisfied.

The "just" will be ever so content because they see clearly and their Lord will lead them into dimensions they never before comprehended! Many new things to discover and take delight in!

We have choice because the Creator of everything desires relationship with us.

 

RE: Why is there evil in the world? (my thoughts and logic)
⁜→ yabberefugee, et al,


BLUF: Free Will, as you say "choice", and the desired relationship (with the Creator) is not really the path to the question of "Good versus Evil." Specifically, the imbalance between the two perceptions of the concepts.

This is a very (very very) deep Nietzsche like topic. Neither "good" nor "evil" are universal absolutes. They are based on social acceptance that may change over time. Current events bring us painfully aware that. I graduated from Columbus State and the City of Columbus. Both the College and the City had statues of the man, made famous by his exploits in 1492. However, within the last week, 21st Century social unrest (a minority intimidating a majority) demolished the accomplishments of Christopher Columbus (and a number of other heroes) for their association with activities that were (near-universally) perfectly acceptable in the 15th thru 19th Centuries.

What was "good" as a socially accepted activity in the 15th Century became a personification of "evil" in the 21st Century → through the retroactive application of the moral and ethics of today.

(COMMENT)

How does this retroactive application, changing "good" into "evil" effect the perception of "choice" and the relationship between man and the deity?

(ANSWER)

GOOD and EVIL are perceptions in time. They can exchange values that can create turmoils overnight. And "EVIL" can be manipulated by social groups for their own value and agenda. This week, there was more Evil then last week, because political agenda's changed.


Most Respectfully,
R

 

He created Satan... true.. BUT he also allowed for "free will" because otherwise how could you have true love if there is no other choice..

Satan tempted Adam and Eve with lies (you can be as god") and all evil stems from that, a fallen world.

 

Sounds like good ole "Moral Relativity" to me.

 

Rocco, you did bring up a point and I am sorry I easily dismissed it as "moral relativity"., though it does bear those characteristics. Jesus has been labeled the Alpha and Omega. Beginning and end. He is a moral anchor. When Jesus spoke of John the Baptist he said "what did you come to see, a reed swaying in the wind?" In other words John the Baptists words stood the test of time, not swayed by the winds of cultural change. Jesus is the same today, yesterday and forever. Good is always good and evil is always evil. Girls can't be boys and boys can't be girls.....but in the secular world anything goes.

 

I doubt that is Biblical.

The prince of darkness is around regardless of God. Our own sin is a result of falling from grace - not of God creating us in that state.

God is victorious only in the end.

There are certainly questionable events - God's torture of Job, God's slaughter of all but Noah's family, God's help with the Israelites in slaughtering every man woman and child of Jericho in order to acquire land. God's help and praise for the slaughter tens of thousands of the Midianite men women and children, including prisoners - EXCEPT for the virgin girls who were divided between the generals.

Personally, I think any real effort to understand the Bible has to take some of these events as mankind suggesting they got help from god in the sense of US football players pointing heavenward when they have success - as if God wanted the Seattle Seahwks to be victorious against Denver in the 2012 superbowl, or as if God wanted us to slaughter Muslims in Iraq, or as if it's our job to help Israel steal the property of Palestinians and leave them not just without representation in the government that rules them, but without their very propety.

 

I suspect it's worse than that. It's a matter of us assigning"good" to those things we want to do.

We wanted to slaughter Iraq, so we declare that as good. In actuality, there was no possibility of seeing anything "good" about it.

And, according to th "Project for the New American Century" (with members throughout the Bush administration) the real motivation was to take advantage of the end of the cold war and our military supremacy at that moment to establish US hegemony throughout a huge region.

We immediately started building huge military bases that were stated to be for our permanent occupation.

We called that "good" for the sole reason that it advantaged America. There was nothing objectively good about it. Like with our Israel policy, it has nothing at all to do with the fundamentals upon which we were founded - fundamentals which we point to when we claim that America is "good".

 

Moral relativity, situational ethics....it's all the same.