US invasion of China.

Ahh, our old friend Michel Chossudovsky, and Global Research.

This is complete and utter coprolite. Anybody reading these "reports" needs to remember that Michel Chossudovsky is a conspiracy nut, who believes in the "New World Order", "Globalization", Jihadists are secretly working for NATO, and in one of their latest reports, that Israel really conducted the recent bombing campaign against their own embassys in an attempt to justify their imminant war against Iran.

How about something unbiased, and in a military nature. Not some kind of propaganda piece by s complete morons?

And reposting the same biased and nonsensical article over and over does not increase it's credability. That does not discuss anything of a military nature. And a lot of their references? The FARS News Agency. A propaganda arm of Iran, and none of the references (I looked) contain any real or informative military information.

In Millennium Challenge 2002’s war scenario, Iran would react to U.S. aggression by launching a massive barrage of missiles that would overwhelm the U.S. and destroy sixteen U.S. naval vessels – an aircraft carrier, ten cruisers, and five amphibious ships. It is estimated that if this had happened in real war theatre context, more than 20,000 U.S. servicemen would have been killed in the first day following the attack.

Next, Iran would send its small patrol boats – the ones that look insignificant in comparison to the U.S.S. John C. Stennis and other large U.S. warships – to overwhelm the remainder of the Pentagon’s naval forces in the Persian Gulf, which would result in the damaging and sinking of most of the U.S. Fifth Fleet and the defeat of the United States. After the U.S. defeat, the war games were started over again, but “Red” (Iran) had to operate under the assumption of handicaps and shortcomings, so that U.S. forces would be allowed to emerge victorious from the drill. This outcome of the war games obviated the fact that the U.S. would have been overwhelmed in the context of a real conventional war with Iran in the Persian Gulf.

That is what it says about the conflict. And you call that an independent, accurate and viable resource?

 

Unbiased?

I have called for that several posts ago but the american chatters (with deep knoweldge of usa military, granted) show no balance. But continued nationalistic bias towards america and a complete disregard and disrepect towards the chinese.

Let me ask this. How can a theory war debate like this continue when the majority of the contributers are flag waving americans who are complety biased.

Russia vs america has more chance. As there are educated military experts from the russian part of this forum. Although if they ever take part in the excerise, remains to be seen.

 

The difficult thing to gauge with the Chinese, is how effective a fighting force they would be in a war, and how well their latest warplanes and warships would perfrom against thier Western counterparts.

Reason, being that the Chinese havnt been in a modern war, for the rest of the world to examine.

Though it would be a fool to under estimate them!

All we can say is that while the Western world has had to cut back on its military budgets due to the economic recession....the Chinese on the other hand are making great strides to reduce the technological gap, by building ever improving weapons in a very quick time.

Though saying that....in some fields the Chinese still need to improve somewhat. I was reading an article today in British warship magazine, concerning the Americans being able to detect Chinese submarines, and to contrary to previous beliefs, it was reported that the US Navy, has so far been quite easily been able to pick up the positions of Chinese subs, when they venture out.........much to the pleasure of the US military.

 

You'd be ever more of a fool to over rate them. As everybody is doing right now.

 

I concur!

http://www.chinalawblog.com/2011/03/chinas_12th_five_year_plan_a_preliminary_look.html

Regards
Highlander

 

Aye as I said.....you can lead a horse to water etc!

Mind you...that report was many years ago.....things will be worse for those sheep that take part in another illegal debacle! They have arms.....unlike the Libyans.....they have right on there side....unlike the Nazi Zionists or the AIPAC sponsored senators who have been committing pogroms and genocide on a scale previously never seen!
The Iranians aren't unarmed women and children.....those AIPAC senators and Neo-con Americans are so normally keen to attack! Bloody cowards, each and every one a degenerate!
Like Hezbollah....They in Iran have only one defence for their women and children, to kill those attackers that wish to inflict genocide against there families!

The American special forces and Iraqis fought Iran for eight years and trench warfare ....with all the best weapon American can supply ........ and every Friday no American special forces were in any of the forward areas...they knew what was coming!
And Saddam.... and the American lost again! Iran still had its independence!

Regards
Highlander

 

Great post, given the secracy of the chinese and not many understand manderin = a difficult debating.

As said on this forum, Russia vs America has more chance.

EvilAztec/Potap vs IngoranisBliss/Mushroom.

I would pay to see that. And not just a one sided topic.

 

Completely untrue.

Aside from a handful of cluster bombs (which are far from advanced weapons) the Iraqis had NO American weapons to use against Iraq.

That has been very well established.

 

Please show me how I have been disrespectfull of the Chinese. Show me where I have not presented things in a very balanced manner. Show where I have presented things with a bias?

Just because you do not like the facts presented, do not call them "biased" or "disrespectfull".

 

It is very true that China hs not really been involved in a war in over 50 years. They have had skirmishes, and some short but intense battles. But not a serious war. They have never had to mobilize more then a fraction of their armed forces against anybody in half a century.

I make most of my opinions based on their equipment. You can have the greatest Army in the world. But if your equipment is a hodge-podge of makes and models, that makes logistics a real challenge. And it can also make it very difficult to conduct a major battle (let alone a war) without unity of equipment.

I do not overestimate them, nor do I underestimate them. I look at what they have, and what they are able to throw into a battle. I look at the capabilities of their equipment, and compare that to that of the US.

They do have some good stuff. The J-10 is among the finest fighters made, as is the J-11. However, the H-6 is an antiquated bomber that should have been retired at the same time it was first built It is based on the Tu-16, circa 1952, the first H-6s are believed to have become operational in 1972).

The PLAN however has always lacked a blue-water capability. And without that capability, they are pretty much religated to an in-close defensive use. Their primary surface ships are mostly for use only in ship-to-ship actions (15 of their 25 destroyers, 21 of their 47 frigates). And while they have some "multi-role" destroyers and frigates, their air defense ships are limited to 5 destroyers.

The US has been able to locate and track Chinese subs since they started to use subs, as long as they were actively looking for them. And this is one of the major reasons that their Ballistic Submarines stay in port. This is a major chunk of their ballistic missile inventory, and the last thing they want is to have US, Russian, and other naval assets tracking them everywhere they go.

 

You still have not explained what this actually means. I knew how to destroy multiple Soviet tanks and APCs in the 1980's, but I could not speak Russian.

And the Chinese are not as secretive as you seem to think. If they were, we would never have known of the DF-21D, is that not right? Nor would we know about the J-15, the Shi Lang, the airfield that meets the exact size and specifications of the Shi Lang, the J-20, or anything else.

You go on and on about being able to speak the language, and how secret they are. The US kept it's stealth aircraft construction and capabilities secret for decades. The Chinese announced their development from almost the moment they started. We also knew of the J-XX project, which Chinese news itself gave a lot of information.

So where is this much talked about "secrecy"?

 

Once again, propaganda and no facts or proof.

Once again, proof?

American troops fighting in the Iran-Iraq war. Interesting, proof?

And what "best weapon America can supply"? I have looked at many sites that talked about the military equipment that US companies sold to Iraq. And the most powerfull seems to be the Hughes Defender, a light utility helicopter. There were also trucks, jeeps, and other military transportation vehicles sold.

Where is that "best weapons"? Where are the Stinger, PATRIOT and HAWK air defense missiles, TOW and DRAGON antitank missiles? Where are the F-15 fighters and M1 tanks? The Apache (or even Cobra) gunships? Where are the PGM bombs, FAE bombs and cluster munitions?

However, I know for a fact we sold some of those things to Iran. Specifically TOW and HAWK missiles. Show me when we sold such equipment to Iraq please.

 

Since american posters are 'confident' in their military knoweldge. Put it to the test. Hot foot it to the russian part of this forum and take on EvilAztec (if doesnt mind the promotion) his military knoweldge is superb.

(Since no chinese experts on this forum to be the opposing side)

 

Sorry. In case you have not noticed, I almost exclusively participate in the Military forum.

However, if he is talking about military matters, have him come over here.

I generally do not get involved in the "Nation" threads in here, because they are all so many piles of garbage. In here, I hope we talk about things in a rational manner.

Better yet, have him come in and join in this little debate.

 

Yes i have noticed, but the military experts from russia etc.. stay in their own space on this forum. So the military/war forum is bascially usa experts like yourself argueing with each other with the occasional foriegn input.

As said previously many pages back. I seen military battles online between opposing views and when experts from both sides are equally matched it can be truelly inspired.

Although maybe you like a biased topic with no real challenge. (but my attempts to create a real military theory war, are not working thus far)

 

Actually, I once again invite you to look at the various topics I have covered. Specifically those most recently in relationship to a UK-Argentine conflict. I have also debated in threads relating to Israel and it's neighbors, Soviet and Russian equipment, and a great many other things.

You simply see a "bias" because of this single thread. I invite you to look at many other ones I have participated in. And if you think I "pick and choose", guess again. I have absolutely no idea who will participate in a thread, how could I? Mostly the threads I participate in are ones in which I have an interest, because I have personal and professional knowledge on the topic at hand.

For example, I almost never participate in threads that relate to military aircraft. Why? Well, I am not a pilot, so do not have much knowledge in this area. I defer to those that do have first-hand knowledge of that subject. However, I am sometimes asked to participate, in which my general response is "I do not fly aircraft, I only shoot them down".

However, when it comes to military knowledge, my background is quite deep historically (as anybody may have noticed by how often I bring up previous examples), and first hand in 3 different areas.

Most recently, it has been in the field of Air Defense. This has been my profession for over 5 years now, and I study all aspects of this, both our capabilities and that of other nations. And as such, you will never see me claiming that Chinese missiles or missile defense is "junk". You seem to think that is my belief, simply because I state that one of their claimed systems (the DF-21D) would not work as they claim.

I also participate in threads often relating to either ground combat. jungle warfare, or amphibious combat. This is because of my previous experience of being a Marine Infantryman for 10 years. And along with this has come with experience in how the US Navy operates.

And some other comes to me as second-hand information. Such as my wife, who had a cousin that participated in the Falklands War. After he was repatriated back to Argentina, she read me several letters she had from him describing the conflict.

So feel free to call me biased. I even invite you to prove me wrong. But be prepared to back up that charge. Several times already people in here have tried to accuse me of having beliefs that are very wrong from what I actually believe (such as recently when somebody accused me of saying that the US could defeat China in an invasion).

But if you do try to prove me wrong, come with actual proof. Give me a report of a system actually working. Give me a report of how something works or does not work as expected. Not like some who simply throw a propaganda piece at me with maybe 2 sentences that relate to the topic with no evidence to back up that claim.

I think you will find I am actually one of the most un-biased person in here. And if you doubt that, then look at my previous posts that relate to homosexuality, gender, race, or religion. One area I admit to being very biased is discrimination. I have no use for people who are "haters", and will consistantly go after them wherever they pop up, no matter who or what their target is.

 

Aaaah...a mushroom...kept in the dark and fed keitch!

But do your really need to fed yourself with such stuff?

No American gave it to Israel and they sold it to Iran!

Proof...proof...show me where it says any different?

Aye you can lead a horse....and all that!

Regards
Highlander

 

Wait, you said they had troops fighting in Iraq. Show me the proof of that.

You claimed the US sold some of it's best military equipment to Iraq, show me proof of that.

Now you up and talk about Iran-Contra. Yes, where the US sold some very sophisticated equipment to Iran.

And yes, I ask for proof. As the old saying goes, "You can't prove a negative". I could claim that Iraq bought weapons from the King of Mars. And your claim here "show me where it says any different" is just as valid. After all, where will you ever find a web site that denies that Iraq bought weapons from the King of Mars?

So once again, you fail the credability test. And can not back up anything you say with facts. Maybe you should move over to the Conspiracy theory, where such things as "facts" do not matter?

 

http://www.greenleft.org.au/node/26825 how US armed Iraq with chemical weapons

i don't know much about iraq-iran war only know US support iraq during that war. but this is just what i found after 3sec search. there are other links i haven't read it. clearly US contributed to Iraq WMD programs, technology, biological/chemical samples, intelligent. i think these are more damage than stinger missile, f-15. as later of the war, Iraq use its WMD to kill thousands of people.

 

The U.S. never supplied WMDs to Iraq.

Everything the U.S. supplied had very legitimate civilian applications and was not "weaponized". That is you could not drive it to a battlefield and launch it.

I wish to note that prior to 9-11, in the U.S. all you had to do to get a sample of a very deadly disease was to send your request and credentials to the U.S. govt.

Even small college professors routinely received disease samples upon request.

 

right unhuh, did you read the source from link? they provide samples of bacteria/technology etc etc. let me requote these. there are dozens link about it on the net.

oh let see: saddam : i like some technology, samples of anthrax, it won't be use for military, I promise.
US company: oh if its not use for military, then its all fine, here is all the technology, samples you can use for CIVILIAN application. it was indeed used on civilians, as Saddam promised.

its the same mobo jumbo about given technology on the pretense of civilian use. if al-qaeda ask for nuclear material for Peceaful use, would anybody dumb enough to sell it? if china want to buy US satelite technology, radar technology for civilian use, would US dumb enough to sell it? its about keep a blind eye, dont care and $$$. in this case US support iraq during iran-iraq war, approve the purchase, and US companys make some money from it.

yes we didn't supplied the actually weapon fully assemble and ready to use, we just give them the technology, the how-to/manual, and material so they can assemble and learn how to for themself. basically a DIY kit

 

the point is that we did not supply actual weapons.

Almost ANYTHING used in civilian industry can be used as a weapon if modified.

 

If china wanted space tech, they go to russia. Since the obama gov has gutted Nasa.

 

Much of Russian space technology was more advanced anyway, topping out during the late 1980s while much of U.S. rocket technology was from the 1970s.

 

the point is don't use dual-use tech as pretense of moral high ground. we sold it to iraq, knowing saddam is NOT gonna use for civilian purpose. our interest in that war was for Iraq to win against iran. and we support it by sending material, weapon, technology, intel etc. if we sold F15 to iraq, least we know they will use on iran jet. the technology, chemical/biological samples we provide to saddam, and how-to, was used on thousands people later on.