Giftedone said, Lack of common sense? Oh abortion is command sense….only to one who champions killing unborns. Your type of personal freedom says….if it feels good do it….it includes killing children. So moral of you. Yes….and abortion at nine months is included in this freedom, right? And who does abortion harm…you tell me? What happens during an abortion? If that were true no woman would need an abortion. At conception a new human life is started that is a biological fact. What do you think the woman carries….a rock? A animal? Bug? No. She carries a human that was conceived by a human male and a human female. The stupidity of your statement is unreal. "In the later stages of pregnancy this is not the case (IMO) such that abortion would be interferring with the rights of another living human." So tell me when it all of a sudden becomes a human? LMAO I mean I can't believe I am even engaging with someone who thinks this. LOL What the hell happened to THE WOMANS RIGHTS? THE RIGHTS TO HER BODY? WHY DID SHE LOSE IT? If it was not human at the start…..then it is not human at the middle or end. Your position is a joke on every level. You don't give a rip about the woman. You enslave her by telling her she can't abort at nine months. You are IMPOSING YOUR MORALITY ON HER. YOU DONT LISTEN TO WHAT SCIENCE SAYS AT CONCEPTION SO WHY DEPEND ON WHAT IT SAYS AT NINE MONTHS? "There are no valid concrete arguments, that I have ever heard of, for the claim that a living human exists at conception." You need to get educated…and I am not going to waste my time…would not matter with people who oppose protection for children. ARe you one of those people who think nothing becomes something? LOL There is nothing potential about a pregnancy because a life has started. If two humans created it…then it is human. An abortion is needed if the woman wants to stop her human child from growing. What don't you get?
Junkieturtle said, So you would tell any pro-abort/choicer that they are a hypocrite if they oppose late term abortion? Because its hypocritical to tell a woman she can't abort at any month based on the premise that its her body her decision. As you know I am active in this field and I discuss this everywhere with people who like you are all over the place on this issue. Most people even pro-aborts find later term abortion wrong. It is rare that I come across someone like you who thinks that abortion should be legal at nine months. It makes me literally sick to think that there are people who share your position that there could be someone that would champion killing an innocent child in the womb .boggles my mind especially at six months on when viability is not an issue. Why do you want to compromise? LMAO Cop out. You know its barbaric but won't admit it. Yes I know what compromise is. And this is one issue that there can be no compromise. I am pro-life that is what you don't get. PRO-LIFE .NO ROOM FOR SLAUGHTERING. NO ROOM. ALL LIFE HAS VALUE AND SHOULD BE PROTECTED AND YES THAT GOES FOR UNBORN WHO ARE DEFORMED WHO AT BIRTH PROBABLY WILL DIE. I can compromise all I want on other issues .but life is not one of them. Could you compromise on rape? Yes I didn't think so. This has nothing to do with those who are born. We are debating the life in the womb. I am also against euthanasia..and the death penalty. Yes .you want to take late term abortion option from her you said so yourself. I want to make it illegal for women to be able to kill the separate human life inside her. This has nothing to do with her life but another one SHE HELP CREATE. If there are no absolute rights then I should be able to live and do whatever I want and so should everyone else. If I want a slave .then I should be able to have a slave. If I want to kill my kid .then I should kill my kid. If I want to steal rape .marry my brother you name it I should be able to do that. If I don't want to pay taxes I should not be forced. FREEDOM RIGHT? And since your all for freedom .then you should champion every example I gave here. What do you people care about reasonable restrictions .it's about freedom you just said it. THE FREEDOM OF THE WOMAN TO KILL. YOU JUST MENTIONED FOOLISH RESTRICTIONS LMAO .IM GONNA TEAR MY HAIR OUT .YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY ALL OVER THE PLACE ON THIS I CANT FOLLOW YOU. LMAO YOU WANT RESTRICTIONS, BUT YOU DONT ITS ABOUT HER RIGHTS .NO ITS NOT. YOU PEOPLE WANT TO RESTRICT HER IF YOU TAKE LATE TERM ABORTION OFF THE TABLE. WAKE UP FOR CRYING OUT LOUD. YOU WANT TO DENY HER AN ABORTION BASED ON YOUR FALSE SENSE OF MORALITY. [/QUOTE] And, it baffles me why you have a problem with me opposing late term abortion. Are you not against ALL abortions or have I misunderstood your position? Should this not be something we can actually find common ground on, or are you so caught up in opposing and demonizing pro-choice people that you can't even bring yourself to see that we actually agree in some areas of this debate?[/QUOTE] It makes no sense .based on why you champion abortion from conception. If there is nothing wrong with abortion why do you compromise? Or is there something morally wrong with it. I don't think you know for sure. There can be no common ground between our positions you oppose protection on what I say is a human life in the womb. If your demonized then .so be it. With the knowledge that science gives us today which is way more than we knew in 1973 .there is no excuse to favor abortion. We are nothing alike .
Every question you've asked here has been explained to you, by me, God only knows how many times. You seem to enjoy writing the same thing, over and over and over and over again, ignoring points that are made, ignoring positions that have been clearly been explained to you in the simplest possible terms. You're trolling. I don't doubt your passion, but you're trolling. I'm starting to understand just what you mean when you say you're here for entertainment. Well, I'm not really here to feed trolls who have nothing to say except the same thing, every time, regardless of what has been brought up. I'll respond to new points you may make, but I'm not going to keep responding to the same questions after I've answered them half a dozen time, sometimes even in the post you're responding to, asking the same exact questions after they've been answered. Your stark refusal to acknowledge what I've said and even that I have the position that I have(seriously, how are you going to tell me what my position is? It's my position, it's whatever I say it is) tells me you have no logical arguments to make, and it shows in your posts. I seriously doubt your ability to debate this topic at the elementary school level, let alone the university level as you've claimed to do. Not if your posts here are a reflective of your debate style. If you were the best the pro-life movement had to offer, pro-choice advocates could hang up the towel today and never have to lift a finger to fight for a woman's right to choose. Lucky for you and those who agree with you that you are not.
Junkieturtle said, I have not ignored one mundane point you have made. You run from the questions I ask really. You don't get it….you just never will. Your position which I have proved…is all over the table. Your position is hypocritical…and immoral. You know it because you want to compromise. Do you really think that you are going to influence or change anyones position on here? I mean why do you debate abortion? Whats the real scoop….? You don't want to address the points or things I say that convicts you…so go ahead…ignore them. Do you think I care? I know your position…your pro-abortion….no matter how you want to spin it. Honey I will formally debate you any time any place. And I will even leave religion out of it. Bring it on. Well since you know nothing about the pro-life movement what you say means nothing. You would be laughed out of any convention of people who value life. The choice you want women to make has blood all over it…and you post here…trying, pretending to be moral….now that says something doesn't it? All about a choice….the choice to kill….the choice you think is moral…..God help you.
OK then time for the 'pro-choicers' to step up to the plate. You 'choicers'......Go out and adopt, adopt, adopt.....Oh yeah.....'lifers' choose life 100% of the time, 'choicers' choose life...Well...Not always... What is really fortunate for 'choicers' is that they don't HAVE to choose life they are perfectly content with choosing death. Life is really challenging and sometimes even sucks big time. Death? Heck, just a little 'snip' a little 'snip' and a big sucking sound viola!!! No more nagging life!!!! Yea Yea Yea
You haven't proven anything except that you know how to repeat yourself a lot. You've said before that there can be no compromise on life for you. Is that why you can't grasp my desire for compromise on this issue and are being deliberately obtuse about it? I've explained my position on late term abortion in quite a few posts. I'm not opposed to it as in I don't think it should ever happen. I'm simply willing to let you have that one. Sort of a "Hey, I know you want all abortion legal, and thankfully that's not going to happen, but here, take this as a consolation prize". It really is no skin off my back if late term abortion is not outlawed. It has it's uses. And even if it were to be outlawed, I'd want there to be exceptions for the mother's health and the discovery of birth defects. Here's the part where you say I'm all over the place, I give her choice then I take it away, yada yada yada. As I've explained to you, also quite a bit, there are no absolute freedoms. The law has restrictions all the time. Go yell fire in a movie theater or try to buy a surface to air missile. Go speed down the highway past a cop at 90 mph. If you live in a suburban or urban area, blast your music loudly till the wee hours of the morning. Put up pornographic pictures on the outside of your house. If freedoms were "absolute" as you say they are, you'd be allowed to do all these things since you are legally allowed to have free speech, buy guns, drive a car, listen to music, and look at pornography. Absolutism is not the way the law usually works, honey. I know that you know this. I respond to the points you make, it's just that they end up being the same ones, day in and day out, because you're not responding to mine. That's very nice of you, to leave your fiction out of it. I'll debate you at any time as well. I kind of thought that's what we were already doing. Well of course I would be, I'm pro-choice!
Here's a factoid: ALL OF US were considered "babies" at the time of Conception. If not the case, why are we wasting our time with Doctor visits to make sure the "baby" is doing ok? Any idiot that thinks a baby is not a baby until it forms eyes and feet, needs to be Euthanized immediately.
The language people use to describe something doesn't mean anything. People call tissues Kleenex's but does that mean every tissue is a Kleenex? People call Southern Comfort whiskey, but it's actually a bourbon, and I've heard it's not even technically that. Does that mean it's whiskey simply because that's what people refer to it as?
NONE of us were considered babies at the time of conception, in fact, NONE of us were given any consideration at all at that time. It is quite a bit past conception when doctor's visits occur, and how about the doctor's visits are to make sure the pregnant woman is doing OK?
In the early stages of pregnancy there is no living human. The reason for an abortion is to stop the process prior to the creation of a living human. I have stated this previously .. the general consensus among scientists is 20-24 weeks. Where you have failed is in claiming that a single human cell (a zygote) is a living human. You have provided no support for this claim. I am educated .. and to be frank I am educated in the domain science that matters (Biology) The fact that you ignored the science I have posted does not make your claim any more correct nor does it change the fact that you have not presented any science to back up your claims. Your claim that you have the backing of science is 1) unsupported 2) wrong Science states that a Homo sapien has certain traits .. the zygote does not make it into this club Science states that without heartbeat and significant brain function " no living human exists" .. the zygote does not qualify. Both of these scientific claims preclude the zygote from being classified as "a living human" If either one of the above scientific claims is true then your claim " I do not listen to what science says" is proven false. Good luck refuting either. ARe you one of those people who think nothing becomes something
You ARE some who thinks this, remember? "Sperm + egg= instant human." Pro-choicers tend to believe that the status of human being is only achieved after months of development.
Giftedone said, So if it isn't human what is it? An abortion kills a living organism. I mean I can't believe you would say something so ignorant of the truth .Un believable . If there is nothing living ..THEN WHY DO WOMEN HIRE AN ABORTIONISTS ? LMAO LMAO AND WHERE DID YOU GET THAT INFORMATION? LOL And what do they say about 20-24 weeks? And if I posted information .what would that do? LMAO You can't even come to grips with the fact that from conception its human for crying out loud. You would not understand nor get anything more complicated .so for me why bother. You are not interested in the truth. If its not human .what is it? A god? A fish? A carrot? And please tell us all ..If a being has human parents, isn't it human? LMAO Can't wait to hear your answer to these. Childbirth terminates a pregnancy, is abortion the same as childbirth? I am educated .. and to be frank I am educated in the domain science that matters (Biology) The fact that you ignored the science I have posted does not make your claim any more correct nor does it change the fact that you have not presented any science to back up your claims. Your claim that you have the backing of science is 1) unsupported 2) wrong Science states that a Homo sapien has certain traits .. the zygote does not make it into this club Science states that without heartbeat and significant brain function " no living human exists" .. the zygote does not qualify. Both of these scientific claims preclude the zygote from being classified as "a living human" If either one of the above scientific claims is true then your claim " I do not listen to what science says" is proven false. Good luck refuting either. ARe you one of those people who think nothing becomes something[/QUOTE]
You ran away from acknowledging...you think it's an instant human being at conception. It has always been "human."
I concur; I'd like to add a few other items: The so-called "pro-lifers" are anything but that; if you support the death penalty; support the elimination of social programs critical for the feeding of humans who are unable to feed themselves or provide for their families; if you support a military war of aggression; if you deny women medical coverage while pregnant; if you deny human's rudimentary medical care; then you are not Pro-life rather you are a cafeteria type Pro-lifer.
Could you be anymore of a sheep? Some people don't have the right to an opinion on here because they base their "personal" beliefs off of what ever is trendy in Hollywood. I'm assuming when you speak of social programs and medical care you are speaking of the welfare system and ObamaCare. I came from a family that was and still is on welfare. Were they incapable of supporting themselves? No! They just didn't want to do the 9-5 and big brother promised to pay their bills so the rest is history. I had witnessed first hand how the welfare system is taken advantage of. It should only be there as a helping hand to get someone back on their feet and to help them find a job. I mean, it doesn't even offer employment services to make people more employable. All it does is enable someone to give up. And if that person is naturally lazy, of course they are going to give up. I'm not for totally doing away with the welfare system. I feel that it should be drastically changed and that any tax paying money that went into it should be paid back to the American people, because that's the honest way of doing business. And ObamaCare is not this God sent gift that all of you lefty loons think it is. I understand that you all love the Government and that it could do no wrong, (at least under the command of a comunist) but ObamaCare is only set up to completely take away everyone's private health care and put everyone on Government run health care. That might sound all fine and dandy to someone who does not believe in freedom (a bit hypicritical for a pro-choice person) but the "right to choose" your own health care will be taken away and that whole sector will be ran like the DMV. They will be making all the decisions. Who would want a bunch of elitest, ungenics loving crazies deciding their medical fate? I know that what I had said can't change any of your minds because your all so indoctrinated. I mean look at you guys. Your completely on the same page that there is no difference between you. It has to come from somewhere. There is no individuality in progressive liberalism. The word progressive is just an insult to reason. Anyone who has watched Obama and other like minded people have seen that their only agenda is the complete decay of America. Well, what can you expect from a radical muslim anyways.
No one is punishing women for having sex. You guy honestly think that what your body naturally does after someone ejaculates inside of you is a punishment. Well, I guess by those standards sex should sound like a punishment to you. Oh, and tell me this, when has birth control ever been a right? It was never handed out at your work like mints at the receptionist counter. From what I remember it was always a perscription drug that everyone had to buy. So by those standards, again, food should be a human right and no one should ever pay to eat again. Housing should be a human right so that no one ever dies in the cold again, so no more mortgages! I want everything for free that makes me happy, and I want it now!!! Your arguments are sooooo retarded! Please, come up with something that actually sounds logical. Not, "pro choicers are punishing women for having sex because they want them to keep their babies". It's never been about the woman, it's been about the baby. Now I know that, that's what pisses you guys off because we don't side with selfishness. Don't give me the rape, incest, or a womans health, crap because nearly 90% of abortions are performed as a means of birth control period!!! Period!!! To say anything else is a blatant lie!!! Stop lying about everything in this forum and just tell it like it is. You don't like kids and you think they should all die before their born. You want to be free to party, have unprotected sex because it feels better and do all the things that you envy men for. And you men on here who side with abortion. Go into the bathroom and chop your nuts off, then go have all the sex you want. Let's keep the babies out of your selfish lethal reach. If anyone delets my comments it will just go to show how much of cowards you really are. Once prime example is the cowardice of those who are afraid of being parents and raising a child. It's not about rights, it's about selfishness and entitlement. Quit telling everyone lies about how your posistion is sooo heartfelt. Bull! You know it's not, you know it never will be. So long as you want to have the Peter Pan syndrome it always will be about selfishness. If they did away with abortion less than 10 percent of women who actually needed it would be denied it. They need to refuse it to those who don't and give it to the ones who do. This is nothing more than a feminist movement that is an out right attack on mothers, responsible women, those who have a heart big enough for a child. You Godless SOB's need to develope a conscience. That's your real problem. Seek counseling for your complete lack of empathy, sympathy, and the ability to love. No one wants to cater to your mentally unstable desires.
The real punishment is the threat of imposing a penalty for non-compliance with a statute that requires the pregnancy to be brought to term. Isn't this what pro-lifers want?
The US ranks 37th in the world for health care performance. It is the only industrialized country without universal health care coverage. We can do better.
EPIC FAIL! Deathers want to give women the right to kill defenseless children in utero, then cry about vicious criminals being put to death for intentionally attacking and killing innocent people. They are IDIOTS.
Lifers are religious... generally. That's the problem and like you say the root of the hypocrisy. I'm so glad we don't have this a major political debate in England, it really takes the focus off of more pressing issues. So look, it's not nice, or whatever, nobody enjoys terminating their pregnancies I can assure you. But take a look around, their are no absolute moralities, it's - in many ways - a terrible world we live in, and certainly not ideal. One of the biggest problems facing us is over-population. No to abortion represents 42 million more mouths to feed per-year... scientists have found that a fetus becomes sentient at around 24 weeks - most abortions are carried out within the first 14 weeks before the embryo has any perception of self or pain. I'm not saying that it doesn't matter, but if you think abortions are evil, I would say they are a necessary and justifiable evil, at least in terms of choice, which I think is the parents and ultimately the mothers. But this is just an opinion, and this debate totally boils down to opinion. What is said by lifers is that "our opinions are more valid than anyone elses" whereas those who contest that are pro choice, entitling women to their opinion. I think there probably is some morality, just in the sense that: what would you rather do? Unplug your computer or terminate and 24 week pregnancy? But you have to look at the world, WE ARE ANIMALS! I feel as though people (religious people generally) make such dichotomous destinctions between us and the animal kingdom denying the fact that life is founded on violence, sex, birth and murder. I know what you're going to say "animals don't have abortions." no they don't, but let's say my partner has twins... and eats one of them - for whatever reason - that happens in the animal kingdom. Immoral animals? So then we have the distinction "we are able to moralise." Yep morality is a very real concept, however, take a look around this place, ANYONE (in my opinion I'll try not to be terse) who believes that we are more moral than our other inhabitants is flatly in denial of reality. So what we have to weigh up is not whether this so called murder is moral in terms of terminating "human" life, but whether, in this crazy violent, war ridden treacherous world we can justify giving women the option to do so. Which is a matter of opinion, hence the schism, though I can say that religous dogma polutes the debate. Here's some vile hypocrisy, George Bush was Pro life... hahaha!! See what I don't get is when you can be so overly "sentimental" about fetus's and bash everyone in the head constantly about morality while bombing the (*)(*)(*)(*) out of poor brown people all the time. You're a war monger, you're not "pro life" at all. Imagine being in Fallujah dropping chemical weapons on densely populated areas screaming "YEAAAHHH WE'RE PRO LIFE... TAKE THIS YOU *****!" What I don't really understand is, if you are so cultivating and protective of human life in its purest form, why are you so mad at women, but not so much at your own country? (just a thought not really aimed at anyone in particular)
Your arguments fail ad do all leftist ones. You make broad generalizations based n nothing more than your own prejudices. All lifers are not religious. All lifers do not support the wars we are involved in. Leftists are so ignorant they don't even realize that their boy Obama has us involved in more warfare than. Bush ever did! Again leftist =idiot
Simply untrue. Bush started two wars. You can say Obama got involved with Libya, but he didn't put troops on the ground there. You can't attribute Iraq to Obama any more than you can attribute the Civil War to Grant. But I like how you chastise JohnConstantine for using broad generalizations and then use a broad generalization yourself. I could make a comment here about the hypocrisy of the right, but that would just be a generalization, wouldn't it? So, I'll just make a comment about the hypocrisy of.....you.
I didn't say all lifers are religious, I said generally they are. That aside, what a genius refutation of my post... I just don't know how to reply. You're right... you're so right, I can't believe I didn't see this before. Try and make a point next time.
