So WHY did God create Man and the Universe?

Ahhhh...the beauty and wonder of God.

Cartoons of Allah, Gay folks in America, Abortion anywhere.....he hates it and so must they.



At least the Christians are kept on a leash anymore....Laws and such.

 

For the moment they are on a leash thanks to the founders belief in separation of church and state. The got off the lease briefly during WW2 resulting in the death of hundreds of thousands of Orthodox and Jewish Serbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_clergy_involvement_with_the_Ustaše

The problem is not Christians in general or Muslims in general for that matter. The problem is the dangerous ideology and this ideology is shared by both. It only needs the right conditions for this ideology to rear its ugly head.

Once you have a group of people that believe they will suffer eternally if the do not adhere to "Gods word" coupled to "This religious leader speaks for God, or interprets this book that speaks for God to mean ..." there is the potential for things to go bad very quickly.

 

No, I am not. But there can be no mistaking that repeated peaceful protests in large numbers can initiate real change.

I do not discount the contribution of religious leaders to the civil rights movement, I merely discount your contention that a scriptural reference was a primary motivation. It was and still is a wholly political issue regardless of the source of proponents and opposition morality.

Witness what is happening on the border with all those kids. Good christian conservatives are going ape poopy, demanding they be sent back to where they came from immediately, yet Jesus was pretty clear about how to treat strangers in one's own land. Seems Christian values for many americans are mitigated by the color of ones skin and selectively appplied. Especially since the vast majority of these kids and moms are christian as well.

 

Likely...those that began the United States understood the danger...and tried to remedy it. the battle continues between church an state (anyone non-religious) to this day....eventually I would hope reality prevails.

If not...we will be the Christian version of Taliban.

Only the "God" will be different.





And there are a lot of them to kill over.

 

Are you suggesting that there is an impending armed conflict to take place wherein there "are a lot of them to kill over"? Who is the "them" that is represented by "a lot of" and "to kill"?

 

NO....as usual you have taken my words and created them in your own image.

Par for the course it seems. Go ahead and make up whatever you wish, you are skilled at this apparently.

 

If I were so skilled as you suggest, then I would not have presented an opportunity for you to clarify what you stated. You still have not answered the questions though. Who is the 'them' that you reference?

 

As the answer would be extremely obvious to anyone of even an average intellect, I can only assume you lack this or are so deeply indoctrinated into God dome that your mind refuses to let certain aspects of the world enter.

Either way....you are pointless.

 

What precisely are you trying to say while using such strange mannerisms in your writing patterns?

 

I doubt very much anyone but Yourself finds mu mannerisms strange or confusing. That you obviously do simply makes my point for me.

I would state it precisely as you request....but, am unwilling to get the infraction.

 

"mu" what is "mu"?

Your closing statement shows that you are not being very manly in your dealings with others. I usually attempt to answer as many quarries as possible in a manner that would prevent such moderator action. However, I have received infractions and deal with that fact of life. Why can't you do the same?

 

Some valid points about the rational limits of some who choose belief over reason and the brainwashing tactics of cults but somewhat unfairly projected onto the entire spectrum of religion (by the way, I've had discussions with athiest who end up putting the bullet points on repeat or who simply become unresponsive when clearly offered the insights to correctly contextualize an understanding of spiritual reality.)

There is an extremly important piece of information I think is missing from your outlook which is essential in understanding human religious belief (or non-belief (individual and collective) and that is psychological development. I will assume your familiar with the general concept- that all humans are not on the same field but rather develop through levels or stages of psychological 'stations' of generalizing principles and values that construct ones view of the world. Each stage uses a bit more complexity and is able to take more perspectives into account than the previous level. Stages must be lived through (no skipping seems to occur) before moving onto the next. Earlier stages are not discarded but rather transcended and included into the new more complex stage. Condusive life conditions affecting the bio-psycho-social domains seem to be nesessary for stage advancement (for instance if someone is focusing on day to day survival, the higher stages never emerge in that person's thinking). Reflecting on this should illuminate the point of how no stage is "better" than another, all are receptors and expressions of humanity. That being said there is a hierarchy that emerges. All humans without exception, even cross-culturaly pass from stage to stage.

What you (and basicaly all agnostic/athiest (Orange)) have a problem with is a couple levels of psychological development (Red and Blue). I'll be using the 'Spiral Dynamics' stage conception to elucidate my point. If you study this map of psychological development (I'm referring only to what's directly under "Stages of Development" (Spiral Dynamics "value memes") the other developmental conceptions (moral, meaning-making, ego-development, etc... are useful for the purpose of self-contextualizing the whole).

Map of Psychological Development-http://pialogue.info/definitions/spiral_dynamics_aqal_BIG.jpg

What you can see is that modern Orange (scientific rationalist) perceives Blue as naive pre-modern mythologicaly minded....which is somewhat true
enough but Orange then associates all spirituality with Blue's pre-modern interpretation (which by the way is perfectly appropriate for countless people...although it and Red religion can obviously cause major harm...there are healthy expressions of Blue and Red).

As can also be seen is that the Orange scientific rationalist is still not the most sophisticated kid on the block and is currently not the cutting edge of thought (it was the cutting edge about 300 years ago). A post-modern spirituality is recognized further up the ladder which is not defined by the pre-modern mythological belief but nonetheless is referring to the same nondual Absolute reality. Orange confuses pre-Orange religion with post-Orange religion/spirituality because they are both non-Orange.

Another description of Blue - (Sterotypical religeon)

Blue
"TruthForce. The Purposeful v MEME
Find meaning and purpose in living
Sacrifice self to the Way for deferred
reward
Bring order and stability to all things
Control impulsivity and respond to guilt
Enforce principles of righteous living
Divine plan assigns people to their
places"

Again...this is an unavoidable stage that all humans must pass through (some never even make it that far in development). It is a natural emerging worldview of humans that is transcended with time and cannot simply be extinguished (it serves as a stage out of Red...a definite improvement...(terrorist, gangs, Saddam lingered at Red)). People have a right to be who they are as long as their beliefs aren't imposing on the lives of others (an Ideal enjoyed by many thanks to Orange).

 

You are correct in that tis fellow failed to understand that the Old testament and the koran, too, b oth were directed at explaining hiw God made patriarchs think.

Muslims are just acting the way the hebrew patriarchs did in 1362BC.
They see sexual promiscuity as a disease that will and can destroy a peoples.

Hence, they use "surgery" in an operation to save the Jewish people from it.

By 32AD, Jesus taught that we must stop using the sword.
We must now rely upon Truth.

Truth is the way to teach people that Child Abuse, of an ever larger number of fatherless kids, is all that will stop the sexual promiscuity.

Facts.
Stats.
These will work.
Work, if we promote the truth and show the Child Abuse and crime that bastards cause us.

 

It is hard to get information on such a complex topic out in a few soundbites. I totally see how my diatribe could be taken to the extreme of elimination of all spirituality but that was not my intent. I am actually very spiritual, believe in God, and had a NDE when I was young.

What I was trying to point out, perhaps in a far too blunt way, was the dangers from a certain form of religious ideology and identifying specific attributes of this dangerous ideology.

I read your comments and looked at the chart but will not repost. In general I agree with almost everything you have said with the criticism (and this is unavoidable) that compartmentalizing the various levels in to a pre-ordained schema is necessary to elucidate the concept but also has the inherent and intrinsic danger of being a pre-ordained schema. Kind of like the difference between Freudian perspective (which tries to fit the patient into some pre-ordained schema - obsessive compulsive and so on) and Rogers who rather than try to fit the patient into his perspective, tried to fit himself into the patients perspective. Rogers would work towards trying to understand how the Patient experienced the world and by doing so would come up with solutions rather than prescribing a pill based on the DSMR list of pre-ordained "illnesses".

That said, I completely agree with the psychological stages and the salient point that you must live through a stage (experience it) to understand it and move on to the next level. I agree that folks become stuck at certain levels and do no advance.

What is probably the most insightful is the comment relating to science as the be all end all of knowledge. We have advanced scientifically over the past couple of centuries but have we advanced in social understanding and which more important ? I would argue that both are important but we have almost completely neglected social understanding and gone backwards in many respects. Almost the emphasis is put on "scientific smarts" .. whether one can do math or not.

Smashing particles together is interesting stuff but how many people has the average nuclear physicist helped during his lifetime as opposed to a missionary or social worker or even a good teacher for that matter.

Finally there is this:

The Golden Rule. If only most Christians would work harder to understand and not neglect perhaps the most important of Jesus's teachings. It's meaning I simple on the surface but few understand its depth.

James called it "The Royal Law". (James 2) Jesus called it the rule that sums up the law and the Prophets, Matt 7. Combine an understanding of the Golden Rule with the power of Forgiveness and one need to little else to be assured of salvation.

I have a couple of rules that I think would make the world a better place if adopted by humanity in general.

1) No human speaks for God - Not the Pope, Imam, some book, and certainly not your local pastor, politician or televangelist.

There is a book "If you meet Buddha on the road - Kill him" The simple idea here is not to make a Guru out of anyone .. make a Guru unto yourself.

How many horrible atrocities have been committed throughout history "in the name of God, combatting evil/Satan" and so on.

2) There is a difference between having a belief, and forcing that belief on others. (a form of the Golden Rule)

If you don't like alcohol then don't drink. Just because you do not like something does not give you the moral right to force that belief on others.

Folks need to understand that when they are voting for a law (say in a referendum on banning alcohol) the question is not "Do you like Alcohol"

The question is "Do you have a valid justification for forcing your personal belief on another human through physical violence". Making something a law authorizes the state to use violence, coercion, imprisonment fine to force others to comply with that law.

"I don't like it personally or God does not like it" are not valid justifications. Every Gr 12 student should have an understanding of this prior to graduating and every citizen prior to voting (IMO).

The last inclusion is more of an idea rather than a rule and so is not to be taken literally. "Heaven Should be Banned"

None of us knows what awaits on the other side so there is no point worrying about it and certainly no point in acting on assumption that one does know (Such as blowing oneself up in hopes of 40 virgins awaiting).

Never-mind about the afterlife. Better to spend one's time trying to make this world, right here and now, a better place.

 

You miss the main point of jesus' visit since the Golden Rule was from the Old Testament, and broadcast very well by Hillel long before 32AD.
Jesus told us that the Torah summed up to Love God, and Love thy neighbor.

That was the old way, the way before Jesus came.
It was what God had asked of the Jews long before he sent Jesus.

What Jesus ADDED to the teachings was that men need recognize and abide in Truth, because He was The Truth, the ideal and concept personified for us.

This one thing, Truth, defined God as the ever unfolding Reality.
Jesus said, we must bow down to and accept truth when we see its holy spirit in our mind.

Thus the idea of trinity became clear, in that Reality is imaged in Truth and sired by it, a son of this god available to us all.

 

Dunno, but you may be interested in this sermon. It addresses some of your concerns about the OT-God. Mind you, it’s by Vernon White from the stuffy old Church of England, so it’s bound to be a bit dry in comparison to the show offered by the average US Mega Church Star.

[video=youtube;KHLoDMrZaio]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KHLoDMrZaio[/video]

 

No Cupid, it is you that I missing the point. You are ignoring the words of Jesus and making things up as you go along.

 

Then you are saying that your interpretation of scripture is better, more accurate, more reliable than that which cupiddave offers?

 

Cupid did not give an interpretation of the scripture provided. In fact he ignored the scripture so quit muttering nonsense.

 

It appears that in his 3rd and 4th paragraph, he is giving his interpretation of what happened in that scripture that he is referencing.

 

Good little piece of sermon junobet... I enjoyed that it was a 'bit dry' in comparison to what is commonly heard in churches across the US. I especially liked the fact that he made it clear (at least to me) that God has the capacity to transcend the human intellect and make Himself known to whoever He chooses to give awareness.

 

The only reason the Civil Rights Act was passed was because the politicians realized that they were trapped in the web of their propaganda. The country was in the middle of the cold war with the commies and it was trying to sell the idea that it was fighting for democracy and freedom in Vietnam. Meanwhile it was using concentration camp tactics against its own black citizens and depriving them of the very democracy and freedom it was babbling about to the rest of the world.

The fact is that if it hadn't been for that conflict the country would be just as Jim Crowish as it had always been. Since the collapse of the USSR the US has been slipping back into its old Jim Crow ways. You can see it everytime you watch the news or read a newspaper.

Morality and Jesus had nothing to do with it. The politicians had to sell the lie to the rest of the world so they changed their ways, at least for a while. Expect the demons to return in even greater numbers.

 

Even that is pointed out in scripture.


Mat 12:43 ¶ When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none.



Mat 12:44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.

Mat 12:45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

 

Well, the main difference is that unlike Freud's work (which I perceive as valid), the data is not theorized and projected onto mental phenomenon, but is constructed by the test subjects themselves. For example, the Muslim and Christian fundamentalist have the same developmental hardware just different idealogical software running (it could just as easily be communistic or fascist ideology...one's culture (like religion) effectively dictates how a developmental stage will express itself (especially the first few stages). You can fully expect the fundamentalist to begin to exhibit more independant and success oriented thinking if development continues (as a portion of the middle east has where development has not regressed or been arrested).

This does not mean you can predict what anyone will think...but it will give you an idea of how they will think. I don't really see too much danger in that (politicians are aware of it...not like their topping out on the map anyway). The possible danger I do see is it being misused by people since it by definition uses a hierarchial framework. This is the reason (atleast for Spiral Dynamics) they use a color-coded system instead of numbers or letters. It would be too easy to say "Oh he's only a level 2 and we're a level 6", whereas comparing "yellow" to "purple" just doesn't have quite the same inherent effect.

Here's where it gets tricky. I don't think God holds a limited conceptual opinion on anything, but I do believe that when humans authentically connect with the nondual reality of the Transcendant Absolute, their consciousness is permeated with the depths of the living reality of God...and any spiritual insights realized should be seen of that value. (Of course I'm not claiming this is common for televangialist, politicians, etc..)

I am also aware (as I've stated before) that when someone does have a spiritual experience or nondual realization it will be interpreted by whatever stage of psychological development they are at and whatever conditioned cultural worldview they have. Constructivism and contextualism occurs with every experience but even more so with spiritual realities exactly because they are by nature so subtle and formless.

When Jesus said Him and the Father were one, I don't think he was mistaken or lying. I believe he was directly perceiving the nondual nature of reality, and experiencing the unconditional love of eternal bliss.

When the Dalai Lama says the meaning of life is to "Embody the Transcendent"...that is the same reality I believe he's referring to, the dharmakaya or Buddha-nature.

The same with Vedanta sage Sri Maharshi describing the ineffable nature of turiya...our actual reality of ever-present nondual identity.

Or the Islamic Sufi master Rumi speaking of the Awakening, Intoxication and Permenance of Love, by which we discover our nondual divine source.

These are not abstractions, but are referrents to actual pathways to discovering and realizing these deeper ever-present domains of existence. Anyone who genuinly engages in a meditative or contemplative path can validate this.

With this understanding I think we need more people authentically "speaking for God" (deep spirituality not narrow religion).

Again, that is a reflection of a stage or 2 of human psychological development...there have been countless atrocities of the same manner or worse done not under the guise of religion or God like Genghis Khan, Stalin, Pol Pot, Hitler, Lenin, Leopold the II, Tojo, Bloody Nicholaus, Saddam, Brezhnev, Kim Il Sung, Chairman Mao, etc.. etc..

Contemplating impermanence and the inevitabilty of death can facilitate spiritual progression through concentration on the transitory phenomenon that we typically identify with moment to moment. It's a central practice in Buddhism and can enable one to become aware of and identify with that which is Permenant.

I tend to believe in reincarnation (much like the early Christians) but even two of the main teachers I follow say they've never remembered a past life but advocate reflecting on death so we will be less likely to squander our precious human life and fleeting time here.

 

?
Matt 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.


The Law was the Torah and the Prophets are the rest of the OT bible.