This is what divides the left wing and the right wing, its the concept of "free will"

If that is so, could you explain what gave you the impulse to type that? Were you forced to type this? Did you make any decisive action to type it? Did you choose to type it?

 

It has an influence. But your social environment simply cannot decide for you. You can choose to be limited by your influences if you want to, but only with your own cooperation. People aren't stupid. We all have capability, usefulness, creativity and the power to change our lives. I believe people let themselves become bound to lesser things in order to escape the true power of who they are. Rich or poor, humans have that tendency. I'm sure guilty of this. I've never met a person who isn't.

What the right is saying is a person is not the sum total of social environment. True, the left tends to lean hard on the whole idea of people being helpless and a continual victim of circumstance, but human beings are way more than this. Personally, I believe in the higher nature of people. We are all more capable than we know.

 

The rich clearly have better upbringings than the poor, everyone knows the number one cause for divorce and stress is finances, so poor peoples parents are more likely to get divorced and they have a far more stressful household than rich people do, so its absolutely no wonder rich people will succeed at higher rates than the poor, its plain as day.

 

Just as I said, the right tends to go more with spirituality than science and facts.

"I believe in the higher nature of people"

I told someone earlier, you are not a God, you are an animal just like me. It seems clear here the right wing has a "God" complex and they think they are special, and they literally think the entire universe was made just for humans. The right wing are children living in a fairy tale.

 

I chose to type it, but my decision was directly influenced by the things ive experienced in life. I would not have typed this if I was born in Kansas Missouri, instead I would be typing about how Obama and his Black Panther army are trying to destroy America and white culture. But no, I was born in El Paso and had very heavy liberal influences on me since a young age, I was also born in the 90's so I have always lived with the internet being around, so the fact I was born in a liberal city in the age of the internet its not really that big of a surprise I would write something liberal on the internet........Clearly, I was very heavily influenced by my environment, as were you.

So again, yes I made the decision to type this, but that decision was directly influenced by my life experiences. I did not make the decision all on my own.

 

You guys constantly say this is a Christian Nation, if this were a Christian Nation, that would be a Theocracy my friend. We are not a Christian Nation, but if you guys had the chance you would make it one. "Under God" was not put into the pledge until the 50's when we were fighting Godless Communists, having children pledge everyday to God is most certainly a Theocratic thing to do. You guys want to take evolution out of class and replace it with creationism, thats theocratic. Churches dont have to pay taxes like everyone else, thats theocratic. Every single one of our presidents except for some of our founders has been Christian, thats theocratic. The list just goes on and on of all the theocratic crap the right wing does and tries to do in America, hell they even have the 10 commandments outside of a public courthouse, thankfully Satanists will be putting up a big statue of Satan next to it to (*)(*)(*)(*) off the Christians I cant wait

 

So does the fact poor kids go to far worse schools than rich kids have any effect on a poor kids chance of success in life? You say they get divorced too much which is true, so when parents get divorced and ruin a kids childhood thus greatly lowering that kids chance of success do you blame the kid for that? If not, than when that kid grows up poor because he didnt have any good role models or a decent education due to his school being incredibly underfunded how are you going to blame him? That is screwed up.

You say " Everyone gets a free K-12 education, and many states have low cost tuition for in-state college, so anyone in this country who wants to get a basic education can easily do so." But do you realize the right wing wants to get rid of this and replace it with private schools so poor kids have to pay to go to school, which they wont be able to afford? Same thing with college, they want to privatize that also so dont use Socialist systems enacted by liberals that help people and hold them up as tokens that the right wing are not the boogeyman, because you know damn well the right wants to get rid of all those systems and privatize them, meaning only the rich will be able to afford it.

Seriously just answer this question yes or no, does a malnourished kid with divorced parents and an underfunded school have less of a chance to succeed in life than a rich kid who has a loving household, and a nutritious meal to eat everyday before and after school? If you say no you are being very intellectually dishonest.

 

So it's a nature vs nurture argument?

Well the answer to that is simple: it's both, but determining which traits are caused by which of those two causes is difficult.

I like to use the idea of the British Monarchy. There's obviously core personalities and traits to each of the Windsors that would be the same even if they weren't royalty - but the fact that they are royalty causes them to act in different ways than you'd imagine they would if they were like everyone else.

 

I agree its both, but in psychology its still known as "Nature vs Nurture" instead of what it should be which is "Nature and Nurture" or something like that, but either way free will is no where to be found in that equation and that is the point of the thread.

 

That depends on whether you think it is possible to, theoretically, determine the outcome of every decision a person will ever make based on the genetic/experiential coding of their brain, implying they don't actually make choices, their brain simply functions in such a way that they inevitably would have come to that conclusion.

I am not sure if that is right. If it were, the entire idea of "responsibility" would be false.

 

The only difference between a video game and real life is the amount of information, nothing else. Have you ever dealt with computer programming? You will start to notice humans are programmed exactly like computers, just with a lot more depth, A LOT more. Our genetic coding is essentially the programming of our behavior and even how we look, you guys should have learned all of this in school already but who knows maybe you had crappy teachers or something. The only way for us to have free will is if we had some sort of spirit or something outside the influence of nature, which is clearly ridiculous but it does explain why its mostly religious people who believe in free will and atheists who really dont for the most part, a lot of atheists think they believe in free will but if you explain it to them rationally they will accept free will is not what we thought it was, it makes no difference really because its not like just by finding that out all of the sudden our wills are destroyed or something lol, no we still continue living on like the animals we are. When I say we are animals I dont say it as an insult like religious people, I say it as a compliment, im glad to be apart of the animal kingdom I see it as an honor, animals are amazing in every way.

 

Like nature vs nurture, it may not be an absolute thing. I know, unconsciously for the most part, that much of what I do every day is determined by my personality. It is simply the way that I am. However, I'm convinced that, unlike a computer (modern ones anyway), we have the ability to modify our own 'code', so to speak, to, if you will, 'change our minds'. Not immediately and on the spot mind you. And there will be some things about myself that I can never change, but there are things you can.

 

I agree, but I dont think that would necessarily be free will. Its likely in our genes to want to modify ourselves because that is how we survive, there are natural explanations for this that dont require a supernatural free will. For example, a sword is a modification of a claw basically, its a way for a human to modify himself to survive in a situation that requires the strength and piercing of a tiger, a human can put binoculars on that modify his vision to see like an eagle, we can but armor on to modify our bodies to be able to have the defense of a Alligator, the point is humans survive specifically because we can modify ourselves to fit whatever situation we need at the moment, that is what makes us different from other animals, and since we have to modify things all the time that leads to an increase in our intelligence gradually over a long period of time, which is why our fossil records show our brain cavity getting larger and larger of the millennial. Surely if we modify our culture and environment its just another natural way of us trying to survive better, it has nothing to do with free will, its just animals trying to survive.

 

So, my brain is a continually reprogrammed computer? Every bit of data inputted into my brain ever so slightly changes how I will react to things in the future?

Using classical physics I could easily conclude that the entire universe, including all my actions, are deterministic. Because of Quantum Mechanics and Chaos Theory, however, we may in fact have control over our decisions at the quantum level due to the seeming randomness and lack of discernable patterns or cause for some quantum phenomena. I think there is something very odd going on in our minds that is not adequately explained by simple classical chemistry and physics - especially this 'perspective' thing I am looking at the world through. There is no scientific way to find, locate, or otherwise determine the existence of this, yet here it is.

You may call it 'supernatural' but I think we just don't yet know WTF we're talking about when it comes to our own minds.

 

You clearly have no idea what a theocracy is do you? Iran has a theocracy, we don't. A theocracy has penalties for those of other faiths or no faiths it implies a leader who is also the chief theologian and head of the church as well as head of the government.

Oh and I've never said this is a Christian Nation. I have said that in most regards this nation was founded upon Judeo-Christian principles and none of the founders would argue otherwise. And I so wish that everyone who claimed to be a Christian actually was. AS it stands right now half or more of those sitting in Church pews on any given Sunday will stand with the goats come judgement day for they Worship the God they think ought to be rather than the great God that is.

 

Simple question for you: Where does thought come from?

 

So El Paso made you type it. Do you take any responsibility for your actions? Your philosophy is a cop out. It provides cover in the fact you can side step responsibility and feel justified in doing so. You claim you are a victim of your upbringing and you use it to hide who you really are.

 

Did you just pull the Quantum Mechanics card? lol, not much I can do with that. Nobody even really understands that crap, and you are right it might mean there is something more to all of this than just chemicals and neurons but even so, it doesnt mean chemicals and neurons dont play a role in our behavior, that much is undeniable, as for the Quantum aspect nobody really knows for certain.

 

Most of the founding fathers were Deists trying to get away from a Christian Theocracy that was Britain, so they made it their goal to keep Christianity out of politics.
This is by Thomas Jefferson
"As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen [Muslims]; and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan [Mohammedan] nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[3]"


We are not founded upon Judeo-Christian principles, we are founded on secular principles.

I did not say we are a theocracy, I said we do theocratic things. When I saw "we" I mean the right wing, because the left tries to stop you guys from doing your theocratic crap and you guys always get so pissed and say we have declared war on Christianity blah blah blah

Just because we dont have a religious leader leading our country doesnt mean NOTHING we do is theocratic lol, what a huge strawman.

 

Very complicated brain processes, a Neurosurgeon or psychologist can explain it much better obviously so I recommend picking up a psychology book. Its all about nature vs nurture, free will is no where in there.

 

You've got to stop claiming that. That is only true if the world is run on classical physics, which it isn't.

 

So if someone is born in Saudi Arabia and taught since birth that Muhhamed is the prophet, do you blame him for believing in a stupid religion? How could you blame him he was raised in Suadi Arabia!! Of course he is going to be Muslim. You think all Muslims and all Christians everywhere around the world made their own free will decision to accept Jesus or Muhhamed? It had nothing to do with their parents brainwashing them?


Is brainwashing even possible based on your logic? If we have ultimate free will as you suggest, than surely brainwashing is impossible and all these Muslim kids running around saying they love Muhhammed surely are not brainwashed right? They came to their own conclusion to pray 5 times a day towards Mecca to a God who doesnt exist, right? All their own decision, had nothing to do with the fact they were born in the Middle East.......What a load of bull (*)(*)(*)(*)

 

Even if it wasnt "classical" physics alone that ran this world, it doesnt mean all of the sudden environment and genetics dont determine ones behavior lol. You can have a universe ran both on classical physics and quantum, while people still get influenced by nature vs nurture. You cant just pull the "Quantum!!!" card and pretend nothing I say is true just because Quantum Mechanics is such a huge mystery lol, thats childish mentality.

 

Neither side believes in free will, they both value conformity. They just disagree on what to conform to.

They're both a bunch of asshats.

 

No that isn't correct. Quantum physics explains how the universe ACTUALLY works, classical physics is simply convenient because on the macro scale it usually explains things well enough.

I CAN pull the Quantum card - you want to ignore it because it doesn't jive with what you're arguing. We DO NOT completely understand how our brain works, nor how quantum mechanics works. So you can't claim to know that genetics and environment determine the outcome of every decision I make. I understand your logic, people have been making deterministic arguments for centuries, and if not for Quantum Mechanics I would probably agree with you, but the universe is not,unfortunately for us and our constantly pattern-seeking minds, predictable, it would seem.

It also depends on what you define as free will. You are arguing you are a slave of your own mind, that it tells you what to do. Thing is, total free will, ie the absence of any influence that sways you towards a particular decision, would mean you would never actually make a decision. Plus you cannot do ANYTHING, you have to obey the laws of physics. To have total and complete free will, you would have to be God. I define free will simply as the ability to choose my actions - even if you were right and my brain determines my decision - so what? How is that a lack of free will? My brain IS ME, I am making the decision.