Precision in Nature: Evidence of God or Accidents?

A singularity is an event. In terms of the BB, all that exists was in existence when the Bang went bang.

 

No it's not. The Big Bang Theory does not claim the origins of all matter and energy only its expansion from the singularity.

 

So the singularity is an event which doesn't explain creation. I think I said that. We can go round and round but there isn't anything in science that can explain creation or disprove the existence of God. And there isn't anyway to prove that God exists. If I showed you live feed video you still wouldn't believe it so it's futile to show it to you. IMO it's a stale mate.

 

Its not impossible once you can prove supernatural events or phenomenon then it makes deities plausible, so instead of focusing what your doing to prove it, demonstrate that like ghosts if you can prove hauntings are true then the supernatural of living after death becomes a consideration. If you can prove entities possess people then you prove that is true and makes other things possible for consideration. It shouldn't be hard with our current level of science to gain observational proof under impartial conditions.

 

We have no evidence of what came before the singularity. The correct answer to that lack of information and the question of what came before is "I don't know".

It is not "goddidit".

 

Thank you Captain.

 

There is evidence that the spirit lives after death but it's not proof nor is it proof that God exists. In Malachi Martin's 'Hostage to the Devil' he claims to have actual videos of levitations and such. I have no reason to believe he's lying, but showing such a video to the world would just bring scorn and charges of hoax. Malachi is an exorcist. There are countless eye witness testimonies about spirits since time began. There are photos and audio recordings. But there isn't anything I could show you that you would accept as proof.
I wouldn't try to prove God because I don't believe there is one, not that there couldn't be but it would suck to be Him.

 

If I was God, I'd do things like make Earth's orbit a perfect circle, not an ellipse. The Moon would orbit in exactly 30 days, and the year would be a multiple of 30, like 360. What's up with a 365 1/4 day year? Some precision, God can't even get the easy stuff right.

 

He got it right, just not to your liking. He did it His way (insert Sinatra here).

 

The problem with any intelligent design argument is that it falls apart when you get to "who made the maker?" Did god always exist? Or did god make himself? Well why couldn't the material in the universe simply do that on its own?

 

That requires faith. Here are 7 theories on creation and all of them require faith, especially if you believe as I do, that there is life all over the universe, which would require that serendipitous moment on Earth, to be repeated many times over. I don't believe life was an accident because the moon was in the Seventh House and Jupiter aligned with Mars.

http://www.livescience.com/13363-7-theories-origin-life.html

 

yardmeat:

Look at the words that I highlighted in red within your above post. "Human-controlled."

By your own admission, the existence of animal husbandry is a direct result of the intervention of intelligent beings--humans, in this instance.

You shot yourself in the foot when you used the expression "human-controlled," because it shows that you are aware that repeated instances of fine-tuning requires the intervention of intelligent beings, humans in this instance.

1. Now, explain to the rest of us how the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table could have happened by themselves, when it clearly required the intelligent intervention of humans to create the other 26 elements on the very same Periodic Table.

2. In fact, let us take it another step further. Explain to us how our fine-tuned universe -- which is far more complex than animal husbandry -- could have resulted without the intervention of an intelligent being who happens to be Almighty God Jehovah?

I will watch for your response to my two (2) above requests.


Alter2Ego

 

I don't think you understood what I said. Your argument is like saying that, because human-controlled husbandry exists, then all animal mating must be directed by an intelligent force. Same logic, absurd conclusion, also known as reductio ad absurdum. I'll give some other examples:

Because human-made dams exist, all water blockages must be created by an intelligent force.
Because human-made poisons exist, all toxins must be engineered by an intelligent force.
Because humans-made fire exits, all combustion must be guided by an intelligent force.

See what I mean now? Do you think that God personally engineers the position of every water molecule in a snowflake? Snowflakes are complex, but that doesn't mean that God designs each one. I can also introduce you to some rather horrifying things in nature that are very complex. Did God design every tortuous thing in nature?

Shuffle a deck of cards. You will get yourself a very complex ordering, and the odds of ever ending up with the exact order of cards that you just produced is 1 in 80658175170943878571660636856403766975289505440883277824000000000000. Did God pick out that specific order for you?

 

That is because no one claims it was an accident.

Fine tuned merely means the way things are which is not proof of fine tuning or a god.

 

TrackerSam:

Our fine-tuned universe is evidence that God exists. Why so? Because it is a scientific fact that precision cannot occur by accident. The 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table are all interrelated with each other, and all 92 are precise.

Accidents cannot result in repeated incidents of precision, because accidents are unguided events that are known to be harmful.

Similarly, spontaneous events cannot result in precision, because things that occur spontaneously do not show any planning. They just happen out of the blue. In order for 92 different to be precise--each one in and of itself--and in order for each of those 92 different elements to then be related to one another, there would have had to be deliberation aka it required the intervention of an intelligent being who wanted it to be so. Yardmeat gave the example of animal husbandry, which requires the intervention of intelligent beings (humans, in that instance).

Compare the relatively simple task of animal husbandry to our fine-tune universe or to the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table, all of which are precise and all 92 of which are interrelated to one another.


Alter2Ego

 

TrackerSam:

Perhaps you can present us with credible evidence to prove your claim that "the spirit lives after death," especially since God's inspired word, the Judeo-Christian Bible, makes it abundantly clear that everything ceases at death and that without the future resurrection by Jehovah, the dead will remain dead.


Alter2Ego

 

You still don't understand the counterexamples provided. Also, there's nothing particularly complex about the Periodic Table. It is actually really simple. Nor is it any great mystery why some occur naturally while others are created in a lab. Human-created elements are radioactive and decay rapidly . . . even if they did occur in nature, they wouldn't last long for anyone to discover. In case you are legitimately curious: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_element

 

atheiststories:

The only thing falling apart is your lame argument in which you provide no credible explanation for why earth is fine-tuned for biological life. In fact, without the intervention of an intelligent being aka Jehovah, no skeptic can provide a credible explanation for how biological life came into existence, period.

Your argument against the existence of Jehovah--"who made the maker"--is the same stale argument that I get from skeptics at website after website. They all attempt to place human limitations on the Creator, insisting that if humans were created, then the Creator must have likewise been created. Never mind that Jehovah is not human.

Interestingly, those who deny the existence of God by using the "who made the maker" argument, do not have any problem accepting that the visible universe exists or that the Sun, Moon, Stars, and the Earth exist--despite their not know how those came into existence.

Since you do not know how the Sun, Moon, Stars, and the Earth itself came into existence, are you going to then argue that the Sun, Moon, Stars, and the Earth do not exist? In other words, unless you know how someone or something came into existence, then it must not exist; correct? Is that your position?

Let me know.



Alter2Ego

 

The universe is not fine tuned for life.
Life is fine tuned for the universe. If we had a universe with different constants, we might have a different kind of life.

 

Nor is it, that goddidnotdoit. As you say, I do not know. Neither do you, and neither does anyone.

No one knows a *******ned thing, in truth. But that does not stop people from lying about it, and claiming they do know. So, we got liars on both sides, although neither side will admit they are liars. So, I have to call them all out. All are damned liars. Created by human arrogance. It takes humility to admit truth, but arrogance cannot have humility.

 

yardmeat:

With regard to your red-bolded comment, you are pretending that you do not get the point of my previous post--that if it required intelligent intervention (by humans) to create the 26 man-made elements on the Periodic Table, then logic dictates that it likewise required intelligent intervention for the existence of the 92 naturally occurring elements on the very same Periodic Table. It is quite obvious to me, and everybody else reading this thread, that you got that point and you are simply dodging that issue by twisting what I previously stated.

You painted yourself into a corner when you used the term "human-controlled" at Post 222, because when you used that term, you acknowledged that intelligent intervention is required in order for anything to be repeatedly precise.

POST 222: http://www.politicalforum.com/showthread.php?t=245941&page=23&p=1066369385#post1066369385

Again, you created a trap for yourself when you used the term "human-controlled," which refers to intervention by intelligent beings. Now you are deliberately twisting what I last stated by claiming that I am suggesting: "all animal mating must be directed by an intelligent force" (a supernatural God).

Of course we all know that you are using that twisted interpretation in an attempt at throwing me off the issue of this thread--namely, that the naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table required the intervention of an Intelligent Creator.

Your above ploy--deliberately misinterpreting what I stated (bolded in red and bolded in dark black)--will not enable you to dodge the issue of how the 92 naturally occurring elements could have come into existence by themselves. Logic says that if it required highly skilled scientists--intelligent human beings--to create the 28 man-made elements on the Periodic Table, then it likewise required an intelligent being to have created the 92 naturally occurring ones.


In my next post, I will address the assertions you made in paragraph two of your above post, bolded in light blue.


Alter2Ego

 

yardmeat:

There, you did it again. You acknowledged that intelligent intervention--by humans--is required for specific things. Then you try to use that to argue that I am saying Almighty God Jehovah is responsible for water blockages, etc., despite the fact I suggested nothing of the kind.

The reality is that Jehovah created the various materials/ingredients (sand, rocks, etc.) that can cause blockages, and humans simply used what God created when they built the dams. Likewise, Jehovah created the materials/ingredients that humans then combined into human-made poisons. Similarly, Jehovah created the materials/ingredients that humans then combined to make fire.

So back to the argument: If it required intelligent beings--humans, in this instance--to combine the materials/ingredients that resulted in dams, poisons, and fire, how did the materials/ingredients for the dams, poisons, and fire come into existence? Those materials/ingredients are precise. That is, they behave in specific ways that enable humans to use them reliably.

You, and everyone reading this thread, know that the materials/ingredients that are used for dams, poisons, and fire were not created by humans and that humans merely used what preexisted. You and everyone reading this thread also know that those materials/ingredients are precise.


QUESTION #1 to YARDMEAT: Did the materials/ingredients that are used by humans for dams, poisons, and fire create themselves?

Eagerly awaiting your answer to above question.


Alter2Ego

 

Or maybe life is fine-tuned to it... since if it weren't it wouldn't exist. And beyond that, I don't see how something being difficult to understand, or with low estimated odds with incomplete information, would make you conclude there must be some human-like all-powerful creator out there. As if the existence of an even more amazing and complex being than what we see in the universe makes the puzzle any simpler. If this god created everything, what created the god?

 

Cosmo:

Be sure and provide documentary evidence from a credible scientific source that proves your claim that, to quote you: "The universe is not fine tuned for life. Life is fine tuned for the universe."


Alter2Ego

 

yardmeat

Your "counterexamples" amount to a lame attempt by you to dodge the bullet--accusing me of making dumb assertions so that you could try and evade the issue of how the 92 naturally occurring elements on the Periodic Table could have come into existence by themselves.

I am still waiting for you to explain how that could have occurred 92 different times and why each element is related to the others. Exactly when will you explain that?

Alter2Ego