What is the end game for race realist?

People cannot compete on an individual level with our current economic system. We've never had a free market system, so it's impossible to say how well blacks could compete. We have always and still live in a economic system where winners and losers are picked arbitrarily. There is no way you can contribute anything good that happens to whites as "because we're better". The reality is whites are choosen in most cases. When it comes to university attendance it has way more to do with your money than how well you do academically.

Once again there is no example of meritocracy at a mass scale economically. The only real meritocracies you see for real are sports, which blacks seem to excel at.

Yeah mostly for drug offenses, which should never be illegal in the first place. For violent crimes (real crimes) it's a lot less. And it's not really all that much more than it is for whites to be perfectly honest.

We've covered this already. Blacks are not more of an absolute risk that whites. Because violent crimes themselves are not all that common in the USA. So being a higher percentage of something that is even that common does not raise an absolute thread. Only relative risk, which really means nothing.

quote]72% of Black Babies are born out of wedlock.[/quote]


Totally irrelevant

And still you haven't actually said what this actually means in terms of cognitive ability. What does this actually mean in physical and neurological terms. Does this mean that a black person couldn't learn math, couldn't learn an instrument, couldn't make money if they applied themselves? It seems like this is all based on assumptions and a bunch of really dated ideas that IQ really means, and how important it is. I am a Senior Consultant and I have worked in the tech industry my entire adult life. I'm sure I'm one of those black people who have one of those 85 IQs. But seems like being able to apply myself really nullified whatever my IQ test may have been. For the record, I have no idea what my IQ is because as far as I know, I've never taken one.

That's another point in that no one ever disclose what percentage of people even take IQ test in the first place. I personally don't know any black people who have taken an IQ test.

I don't care about Africa, I'm American. I know how to make black Americans succeed.

Welfare moms, drug dealers, gangsters, and murders make up the bottom 10% of the black population. Most black people are working class citizens.

I think it is true. We saw black people in the 80s get rich dealing drugs. There is business acumen for most drug dealers out there. Just because the government has arbitarily decided it should be illegal, doesn't really nullify that countless black people are pretty good at it.

 

What?
Huh?
What system DO we have? How does it disadvantage blacks?
In fact, all our remedial systems Advantage Blacks. Affirmative Action, Hiring Quotas, etc,
I worked or a firm on Wall St, that (like many in many disciplines) that desperately looked for Blacks to hire for stock trading, Financial analysis, etc. Good luck with that!

How come high-est IQ Asian minority are doing great?
It's not arbitrary", it's IQ.
BOTH in the USA and on other Continents we see 'Black' American/sub-Saharan Black societal failure of all/every type. Low IQ, High Crime, Africa an ungovernable mess. [Violent] Crime rates remarkably similar from NY to Nigeria to London.

Huh?
Why is Sports better than Tech, or Astrophysics?
Chess is a Meritocracy, and as IQ would predict, 50% of the Champions have Ashkenazi Jewish Ancestry. The highest IQ group/mini-group.
They, 1/4 of 1% of the Planet, have also won well more than 20% of the 'hard' Nobel Prizes.

Right, it's "drugs", not violent!

89% of all Crime in NYC Nonwhite
March 4, 2016 - by A.N. Wyatte
http://newobserveronline.com/89-crime-nyc-nonwhite/​

Nonwhites commit 89% of all crime in New York City, including 97.7% of all shootings, 96% of all robberies, 94.2% of all murders, 94.9% of all Juvenile Felony and Misdemeanor crimes, and 90.6% of all rapes...​

OOOPS!

The USA is known for it's violence relative to Europe.
But in fact, it IS because of our Black, and secondarily Hispanic, minorities.

See my string here:
http://www.politicalforum.com/race-relations/476586-89-all-crime-nyc-nonwhite.html

And therein lies part of the problem, someone who DOESN'T think it is a problem.
One wonders if this Extraordinary and Warped opinion has a personal rationalization.
Virtually NO ONE would agree with you.
Incredible.

To the degree people's IQ is higher, they can be trained/learn to a higher degree. Some will be stuck with simple math.. and simple other skills.
And that is what we DO see.
IQ is a good indicator of Life Outcomes. No, not perfect.

A disappointing anecdote.
Of Course one could substitute things like the SAT which is highly correlative with IQ.

I don't care either, except for the fact American 'Blacks' are about 80% sub-Saharan genetically.
That genetic mixture/hybridization with whites is what has quite logically raised American 'Black' IQ from 70 to 85.

It's not business acumen, it's lack of competition from much smarter people. Doh!

You didn't answer my previous post.
It pointed out the chip on your shoulder, and Total Lack of perspective about Science in general.
+

 

We have a totally arbitrary and centralized economic system built on regulations and government control. This taints the free market is very bad ways, and we've dissolved into a crony society. Things like affirmative action and other so-called benefits meant to level the playing field do not work, because this does not allow for greater competition. Also, not sure where you've been there are black stock traders, and financial analyst on wallstreet. Very clear indication that you probably have never worked with or for any financial institute. My cousin's ex husband currently works at the World Banc, and he's not the only black guy up in there. And no, the World Banc does not have an affirmative action program for his position, he's just has insanely good credentials and excellent experience.

East asians in general aren't doing great. Majority of them live in extreme poverty under an oppressive government. The ones who make it over here are the cream of the crop, but that's true for foreigners from any country. Even amongst African nations, only the best come over here. So I think it's always a silly comparison to make. Talking about East Asians in a totally American context, who come here almost always as students with visas mostly going to some of our best universities for free for highly competitive STEM programs. Where the average American, black or white would be taking on massive student debt, and or could never pay their way through college unless they come from a rich family.

I work in tech among a lot of foreigners. Anyone who goes to school with these so-called super smart East Asians will start to notice that they often cheat their way through schools. They generally help each other out, help each other pass test, and help each other cheat. In corporate America they're hardly the brightest engineers either, producing shoddy and inefficient work. I've mentioned before how horrible one of my chinese engineers was, copy and pasting code, not able to figure out solutions for herself, and always delivering code of questionable quality. No American engineer could get away with that, but companies lower their standards for engineers because they want to get them for cheap.

So please, miss me with this whole "asians are super smart" nonsense. I know a lot of not so bright Asians. Just because they can play the system, doesn't make them super smart. Work for any consulting services company from Asia, and you will notice that they do a lot of silly things to artificially inflate numbers. I bet they probably even have cheating on IQ test down to a science as well.

Really, because I actually hear that African immigrants in the UK are out performing everyone. But you know, you're going to believe what you're going to believe. And as far as Africa being an ungovernable mess? What country isn't? Do you think China has a great government, how about Japan? Take a look at the current state of economics on India lately? How about with Spain, Italy and Greece all at the verge of fiscal collapse. Seems like no government are hitting home runs right now. Why single out Africa? Tribal conflict has existed in EVERY COUNTRY. What was Europe really before colonism. They were a bunch of tribes that were killing each other for thousand of years, and then decided that the whole killing thing didn't seem to be working. So they created kingdoms, and decided to kill the country next to them. And the when they couldn't kill any more Europeans because they couldn't keep a competent economy, they started exploring the world for other people to kill and steal from.

European history in a nutshell. You can try to up play the "inventions" in Europe, but the reality is, Europe spent a good portion of it's history as uneducated barbarians murdering and stealing from each other. And African conflicts are mostly coerced by European influence anyway. Plenty of companies in Europe has vested interest in tribal conflict, and they want to keep the pot stirred.

With that said, Africa has made some pretty good progress towards peace, cease fires, and civilian governments in the past 20 years. To date, I can only think of 1 African nation that has insane ethnic conflict, and that's Liberia. For the most part majority of West Africa is living in peace just trying to rebuild their economy. You have some trouble areas, but that's no longer what defines the whole continent. Hell you still have ethnic conflicts in Europe, and let's not talk about who a cluster F East Europe has been. But hey, I get it we're not allowed to criticize Europe in these discussions. All I can say, Africa had insane ethnic conflict in the last 50 years, and now it's becoming a mostly peaceful continent. How long did it take Europe to achieve the same thing, like over 300 years? I think Africa is doing pretty damn good all things considered.

So moving on..

There are a lot black people who work in tech. Not a majority, but they certainly have representation in tech. I'm a black senior consultant, and have been a senior software engineer. Not a ton of black people around doing the same thing, but I see many of them in the tech communities. I've even seen black people do presentations at workshops and tech conferences. So yeah, there's reality messing up your perspective.

Blacks don't seem interested in tech, but I've said that many of times in this thread. I think the lack of black people come from the lack of interest. The more esoteric and technical, the less people are in it in general. White and black people tend to shy away from highly technical majors. And if you see more white people doing it, it's because there are more rich white people. Remember schooling cost a lot of freakin money. And they are more likely to have a parent who were in that field, meaning they were raised in a household where technical pursuits are encouraged.

Unless a poor black kid has incredible mentorship, and really gets a chance to leave the ghetto regularly. That skillset isn't going to be encouraged by people around him, since everyone else is poor and are in survivor mode. We aren't exactly raising the next Einsteins in trailer parks either. There is a clear class gap when it comes to these sort of things.

Go to NYC and play a random black bum in chess. See if black people can't play chess. I have money on you losing. To become a master chess player, you need the money to do so. You need money to travel, to get to tournaments and to enter chess clubs. All of this stuff requires resources and money, which blacks don't really seem to have. But since more blacks are moving into higher paying professions and they're more of them in technical jobs, I can see their offsprings being encouraged to do this stuff more.

There aren't a lot of white people in NYC. And for a city full of blacks and hispanics is a damn safe city, considering the size. I mean do you live in NYC?

Let's see, European countries are sometimes barely 20 million in population. The USA is well over 300 million people. Of course our crime rates are going to be higher. But it's still not high for a country the size of the USA

See my string here:
http://www.politicalforum.com/race-relations/476586-89-all-crime-nyc-nonwhite.html

Well the problem lies is that you probably don't know any black people. I do. Statistics can only tell you so much about people. We can pretend that statistics is the perfect substitute for actual engagement. But it's not. Without first hand experience, you're have nothing of substance to contribute. And even if this is all true, what are you doing to make the world a better place. We can throw around black inferiority all day. But what are you actively doing to address the problem? You can tell me you don't care, but you seem to devote a lot of time talking about this. so you clearly care. So with that said, what are you going to do about it?

I know I get tired of black people not pursuing tech. And so I really want to address that problem by designing something for young underprivileged kids to learn technical subject matter. I have a friend that is an educator, and it's definitely something I'm actively working to pursue. That's how I decide to solve the problem. In my field we are hired based on our ability to solve problems. Not sure what your work entails, so maybe your work entails you identifying problems.

I can't see any number deciding how well you'd do in this economy. This economy is so dynamic, that it's hard to predict how the market will go. But of course IQ test predicts everything. We have people trained with PhDs in economics who can't even reasonably predict the market. But IQ scores can predict everything about what a human can do. Yeah right. IQ scores are definitely not perfect, and I would go and say they're total BS. What does solving a pattern really say about someone's ability to solve problems?

Google use to do that, but they abandoned it. Because realistically people can be trained to remember patterns. And there is rarely a situation in the real world where you need to figure out a pattern within the next 30 seconds.

IQ test are so disconnected from the real world it's not even funny.

So my ability to get a high score on the SAT definitely says rather or not I understand my industry. Or that I know how to properly engage my customer base? Or that I know how to solve real world problems, or if I can make efficient models to address business concerns. They don't. And the fact that schools focus so much on testing instead of practical skills is why millenials are coming into the work place totally freakin clueless about how to solve real world problems. Because they were told that IQ and SAT matter, when the reality is that when it comes to making money, either you get it or you don't.

Oh yes. Science. Clearly it's all about taking a bunch of numbers, mostly cherry picking them, and saying it's genetic. That's what science is these days. Got you

 

We have a Capitalist System, the biggest exceptions favor Blacks. See my last

East Asians ARE doing great, and most came here poor and discriminated against.
They have higher educations and higher Average incomes than Whites.
And WAY higher than Blacks. OFF the charts higher in IQ and income.
and again, it's because they have Higher IQs.
It's that simple.

It's a sure bet you don't work among alot of Blacks in Tech.
LOL

"You bet they cheat"?
This is a juvenile, goofy, and bigoted answer because you have no rebuttal.
All your posts are GARBAGE, not debate.

Those countries are all governable and don't live in huts like much of Africa.
LOL

Only in the last 20 years?
an unwitting and devastating admission.
They finally (after 10,000 years) picked up something/anything from white people?

Don't you mean "Skipping over"?
LOL

Please make up which contradictory statement/Lie you want to go with.
LOL

LOL
You're comparing the 3-card Monty crowd to World Chess Champions.

No, those are modern stats from THREE Different Sources.
They are NYC, Chicago, and NATIONAL.
They DESTROY your grotesque lies about Black Violent Crime.
That's why you DISHONESTLY Mischaracterize/don't quote their totality.
Despicable.

DUH no.
We're talking Crime RATES, not absolute number.
DOH!

No, the problem is Smart people (like me) want to quantify, while Disingenuous or Obtuse ones prefer meaningLESS anecdote: "I know a smart Black guy so blacks can't be on average less smart."
DOH!

Just above

Not cherry picking anything.
Just the broad overview of racial IQ... and in the last, the Horrendously disproportionate numbers of Black VIOLENT Crime.
UNTOUCHED/UNREFUTED by you. You prefer Fudge/meaningless words like "alot".
You post NO stats, you just make false assertions, and seek to replace data with personal/Goofy anecdote.
Because, lets face it, there are no good stats for Blacks. (except in athletics/maybe music)
+

 

There is very little chance of being murderered in the USA. 300 million people, less than 10k murders a year and shrinking. The chances are too low. AND n9 matter how you try flip it. Blacks being half of that is still a low number. A cou0le of million people commiting less than 3,000 murders a year can't possibly be a sweeping statement about genetics. This is less than 1% of all blacks. So if blacks are genetically predisposed for violence then why is this really a higher distribution? Why aren't we seeing 70% of all black people being murderers?

Hey but this is all science. Right?

Except you havent provided a lot of science. You put numbers up and then stated why you feel the numbers are the way they are. But then you talk about me using anecdotes. Well, sorry to tell you, so are you.

We can go on. IQ scores in sub Sahara. A place you state is ungovernable and war torn. So how the hell did you administer these test?

And yes China lies. I know this from following their economy. They over exaggerate everything. They take short cuts. They pad numbers. They play to win. No doubt they have ways of just fluffing their stats up.


I work in tech. We use statistics all the time to get trends about systems and their health. I could easily make all chart say anything by manipulating the sample.


And to my last point. Whereven really the raw numbers? The info on IQ test. I haven't seen a raw numbers source like ever. No info on percentage of lack vs whites who take these test. Who are the participating schools and districts? Do these trends persist across class levels?

Let's be real race realism is based on old data, and wasn't done by a real data scientist. I personally feel it should be revisited now where techniques for cleaning data are utilized now. It wreaks of trash data

 

LIE.
LINK?
here's mine
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/27/us/murder-crime-fbi.html

The F.B.I. reported that guns were used in nearly three-quarters of the nation’s 15,696 murders during 2015.​

It is again troubling, and indeed impossible to debate someone who has No regard for the truth. No shame.
You just say anything that you want to.
It's sociopathic.
Only children, or those with the mind of them, can lie like this.

and of course, you also Dishonestly avoided the high Black VIOLENT Crime rate you said didn't exist.

I put up numbers, you put up BS anecdotes and false assertions.
You haven't refuted ANYTHING I said.
NOT a word. NOT a number.

In places where it is more civil than Average. Oft Capital cities or places where there might be a 'university.'
Your posts are so juvenile, so childishly and emptily argumentative.
NEVER any Data. Except the Blown one above.

We're talking about ALL of East Asia...
AND ASIAN STUDENTS IN THE USA. The numbers re the same and the excel in OUR schools, while blacks drop out.

Go right ahead!
But you couldn't even get total murders right.
WTF!
And I didn't "manipulate any sample." I posted Crime and IQ of ALL members in all places.
Any rebuttal? NO.

IQ tests are given every year in many schools. And again they highly correlate with SAT Tests.

No quotes I see this time either.
I caught you Contradicting yourself in the same paragraph, and then again further down in your last about Blacks in Tech.
You post like a Child.
And no regret.
Shamelessly caught Lying you come back for more, and with more Lies.

Ejay is at least in the ballpark, your posts are a JOKE and unwittingly (of course) Prove said IQ differential big time.
Your posts undebatably bad.
More than Two SDs below debate, 3 SDs below good debate. About the average.
+

 

I just want to be clear here, but are you discounting IQ testing? I get it that they're not perfect, but they do seem to correlate pretty closely to success in school and success in life. But if you don't believe that IQ testing captures anything useful, than this entire discussion, in fact any discussion, about group differences is irrelevant. If you don't accept the validity of IQ testing there is no point starting a thread on a topic that seems, at it's core, to be based on IQ and standardized testing.

 

Anything that shows Black to be inferior has to be wrong.

 

Now we're name calling? Are you becoming unhinged. I said 1% of all blacks in America commit crimes. Add up the numbers yourself. The reality is there is never a situation where most black people are involved in crime. So with that said, if somthing happens to 1% of the population, is that really genetic? You saying "well blacks do it more than whites" means nothing. For you to attribute it to genetics, it has to be true for most black people. And the reality it's not. I have looked at the UCI, murder is still averaging somewhere around 3,000 to 6,000 per yer for black people. Yet there are millions of black people in this country. So the reality is something you're saying isn't adding up.

No, one correction here. I put forth an anecdote. You put up numbers and attached anecdotes to them. You aren't any more empirical, just because you feel numbers
"tell the whole story". They don't. I can probably find a study that shows white men more likely to be involved in pedophilia, betstiality, and incest. And then I can say "hey look, it happens way more than it happens to blacks or any minority group". Then I could go on to say, hey guys, I think it's genetic. That's exactly what you're doing. Throwing together some numbers, and then trying to fill us in on what they actually mean. Slice and dice it any way you want, it's conjecture, and it's an anecdote.

Asia fluffs their numbers, get over it. It's a culture that's all about saving face. Just like China's supposed 7% growth, when the reality it's on the verge of economic collapse. But when you have a government that controls everything, and people are scaled as crap of what their government may do to them, they generally can control their information very well. The minute majority of East Asia isn't ran by some scumball dictator is the minute I take anything that comes from those countries at face value.

The raw number for murders in the USA is somewhere between 14,000. That's it. And the murder rate has gone down every year since 1994, while the population of blacks have increased since then. I mean it's simple math at this point.

So are you numbers from 2015? Are these yearly averages? Of course they're not. They are ripped right out of Bell Curve, a 20 year old publication.

Lying about what. There are many blacks who work in tech. I know plenty.

Are blacks getting involved in tech at the same rates as other groups? No. I would like to see that increase.

now there is my clarification. But hey, things are harder to figure out when you try to take people's quotes out of context.

Lol because I know enough about statistics to question methodology. And I work enough in the business world to know first hand what you say about Asians and other groups is complete nonsense. I know some smart Asians for sure. But a lot of them game the system. The problem is that you keep making these statements based on volume, and you assume a certain level of quality. I want to take you out of that mindset. I've worked with so many clients who think just because they can demonstrate volume, that they have something of quality. That's not really the case.

Everything you say is all based on "volume is everything". "There are more white inventors". "there are more asian graduates". The bottomline more means nothing. It's all about quality at the end of the day.



Now forget about what I said above. Raw numbers are very important to these discussions. And to date, there has been no raw numbers released on IQ test. And that's just reality. No one really knows what the participation rate is. Everything you've said about IQ has not been raw numbers. It has all been through studies. Every single last one of them.

Now you may be asking, what is the purpose of raw numbers? I'll tell you, we get a better idea of of even finer metrices. A better breakdown of what these things actually mean. The reality is data scientist are better, and have far better methology when it comes to statistics than some social scientist. My issue with race realist is a severe lack of data, a severe lack of transparency, and a whole lot of assumptions. And I won't play "my study is better than yours game". Because I'm not some humanities student trying to give a great presentation. I'm trying to figure out what any of this means in actual tangible and practical terms.

 

Yeah, sampling seems to work on just about everything except Black I.Q.

 

Standardized testing has issues. That's why American schools are failing. Teachers don't actually teach students concepts and ideas. They simply teach them how to pass test. And the utility of a child's education has gotten worse, because they aren't actually learning anything. Learning how to pass a test is a skill within itself. But this doesn't mean that you have any idea of to use whatever info is on the test. At a point testing is just a means within itself. You can't get too bogged down in test results, without constantly revisiting what the test results actually mean. And I highly doubt IQ test are relevant in today's market place. I feel this "IQ is a great predictor for success" really has come from a different time when the economy was far different than it is now. Technology continues to be the wildcard that these test overlook. And tech is built on practical knowledge. Which is why formal education has never been a big requirement for technology in general. Because it's more or less, you know it or don't. Same with finance. Two pretty huge cornerstones of the economy, both requiring the least formal education.

 

Yep, a moron will make a great brain surgeon or rocket scientist. If you develop a curriculum and then test for that curriculum is that teaching to the test?

 

I'm all about letting the chips fall where they may. But I'm also about everyone utilizing their full potential as well. It is very clear to me that our current education system stifles growth. Using the public education system as any sensible guideline for education is attrocious to me. Education isn't a priority.

Oh the topic of brain surgery. I don't need we need any more brain surgeons. With advances in surgical lazers, and machine learning. We may not actually need actual surgeons. Computers have better precision, and are less likely to make mistakes.

 

LYING AGAIN!
LINK!
You said blacks commit 1% of all Murders ("3000", actually it's more like 8000), NOT "crime". And that too is a Thanos LIE! They commit app HALF of all Crime, and make up HALF of the 2.5 Million Federal Prisoners.

And of course your claim is FALSE!

approximately and Astonishingly, 33% of Black Males have committed crimes.
(a well known Fact)
Even assuming Black women commit No crimes, that means 16+% of Black people commit crimes
Take your pick:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wha...=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=1/3+black+men+penal+system

You don't know how debate works, and don't want to know.
You make a claim, YOU Post the numbers.
You just want to able to Continue making stuff up.
There really should be sanctions, indeed BANNING for Posting Criminals like you.

But you said LIED AGAIN it was "under 10,000" in your last post! And it went up in 2015. See my last
WTF!
Moderator Please!

My number was from the FBI with a this year's NY Times LINK!
"Bell Curve"?
WTF!
Moderator Please!
You tell so many Blatant Lies you are Undebatable.
The Dishonesty is OFF The charts and worthy of Banning,.

The rest is all Garbage too.
You post NO LINKS to back up your claims, because there are None.
You don't even know what debate is.
You just make stuff up.
You Lie at least 5 Times a post.
Moderator Please!

You LIE in Every section of EVERY POST.
You post NO LINKS for your Claims, because there are none.
You might have seen them but you don't want to post them so you can LIE about them.
What a Disgrace.
Moderator Please!
+

 

If you really think that, this entire topic, as well as anything having to do with education, may as well be irrelevant to you. Standardized testing is used all over the world, by pretty much everyone. Now, it isn't perfect, but it's pretty good for quantifying who is going to be successful and who isn't. So if you are discounting IQ and standardized testing, there is no way to know which students are capable of what, or if they are learning anything. You could have said that in your very first post and this entire topic could have ended on the first page instead of going along for 27 pages when the entire time you were never going to accept that any statistical data on intelligence since you don't believe there is anything about it that we can measure.

 

1 Singapore 108
2 South Korea 106
3 Japan 105
4 Italy 102
5 Iceland 101


17 Bosnia and Herzegovina 90
18 Serbia 89

Richard Lynn's IQ studies are slightly biased and he once wrote a paper on the negative impact of Third World immigration to the UK. Even well-established academics can cherry-pick IQ figures to make a political point. The average IQ of Serbia is the same as that of US Hispanics due to the low-socioeconomic status of the country and I don't think there is something biological about the IQ gap between Iceland and Serbia.

 

Once again you keep trying to say all crime. The only crime that exists is murder. Things the government arbitrarily make illegal that does not impact anyone's life are not really crimes. They are things that the government decided should not be legal.

I only count murder as a real crime because it fits all definition of violating someone's rights. I would also count rape which is even for black and white males.

[Quotr]
approximately and Astonishingly, 33% of Black Males have committed crimes.
(a well known Fact)
Even assuming Black women commit No crimes, that means 16+% of Black people commit crimes
Take your pick:
https://www.google.com/search?q=wha...=chrome&ie=UTF-8#q=1/3+black+men+penal+system
[/quote]

Again majority of these crimes relates to drugs. Not murder

What did I make up. I said 1% of all black people in the USA commit murders. That's true.

Murders are at around 14k a year. If blacks are half of that then it is under 10k.

So we should ignore a 20 year down trend for a 1 year up trend? I'm not saying anything you can't look up. If you want to make a statement about crime, then you can't ignore a 20 year consistent reduction in the murder rate.

You seem to think it's worth ignoring.

This is not a debate forum as far a I know. And if it were you'd be banned since you have made several ad homs and used plenty of anecdotes.

Tell me something I lied about.

Such an emotional response. I though blacks were the ones with impulse control problems.

I'm not going to play your game. I told you less than 1% of all blacks are murderers. All you need look at total murders divide by 2. And then find the percentage basedon the population which is 40 million. Now tell me this is more than 1%

See the thing race realism is an argument for genetics. And race realist themselves have made blacks are violent and murderers. And this is genetic.

But can we really say something is genetic when it applies to 1%?

That's the question you still haven't debates or debunked. No matter what you post you can't magically make the murder rate go up.

And you can single out young black males, but there is a spike in the murder rate among all makes in that age group. You can argue this is genetic without noticing age imilar trend in other groups.

Anyway you seem to want to see a lot of links. I'm not going to waste my time. You can use your own sources to invalidate what I'm saying. But after all of your temper tantrums you still haven't even got to the crust of my argument.

The reality is that those numbers aren't going to magically go up. The murder number is the murder number. And the population is the population.

 

Yes test are great predictors of success based on what evidence? This hasn't been proven. It is something social scientist just believe because the reality is thaat social science is a BS profession that has long outlived it's purpose. Social scientist are just wrong about people and they try their best to make opinions and assumptions into science. Very little social scientist say can't be debated. And I'll be happy when some data model pretty much eliminate the need for a fraud field like social science.

 

Although I agree with your general critique of social science scholarship, IQ correlation with education and success is one of the most easily replicatible, and replicated type of study out there. You're free to Google it yourself, but I think if at this point you don't think IQ or standardized testing has any real world application or meaning, then no study will make any difference.

 

You don't need to try to discredit social science to attack the credibility of race-realism. The relationship between academic success and professional success is well-established. You have to be smart to work cognitively demanding jobs. There is also a strong correlation between IQ and success on standardized tests. Academic success is a great predictor of success at high level professions. Intelligence however is complex. People have mental strengths and weaknesses including differences in their intelligence and personality that affect their success in life. Being highly intelligent doesn't necessarily mean you will be great at all things and doesn't guarantee success. You have to work hard to be successful too and someone who is only of average intelligence can outwork someone who has above average intelligence. This isn't controversial. The high heritability of intelligence is also not controversial. The controversy lies in insisting that group differences in IQ have a genetic component rather than being affected by developmental and environmental factors. You have a genetic potential for intelligence and your nurturing environment helps you realize that potential. How much of a genetic component to group differences in IQ there are depends on how genetically different groups are in ways that affect intelligence. That is the real issue here.

This is a good article to read on the definition and nature of intelligence which includes implications for the race & IQ debate:

Sternberg (2012): Intelligence Dialogues in Clinical Neuroscience 14(1): 19–27

 

Wait, how can there be controversy between IQ having a genetic component and being affected by developmental and environmental factors?

It looks like both are perfectly possible.

 

As I said, if groups differences in IQ have a genetic component then those groups must be genetically different in ways that affect intelligence. The 100% environmental explanation for group differences in IQ is perfectly reasonable when you consider the evidence and the argument against the hereditarian position.

 

Graves is mistaken.

See that statement beginning with "therefore"? It doesn't follow from anything stated beforehand. Showing the existence of the one causal factor doesn't negate the possibility of showing the other.

 

How so? You didn't address any of his arguments. Graves has provided scientific evidence that there is no genetic component to racial differences in IQ. Those quotes address the general argument but he has moved beyond that to citing actual genetic evidence. You should read this article:

If Graves is mistaken then explain how.

Actually it does follow. Graves referenced an experiment where genetically identical rats were tested for intelligence by having them run mazes. One group of rats was deprived of environmental stimuli while the other was not. When they did the test the superior maze runners were the group of rats that were not deprived of environmental stimuli. Since they were genetically identical they had the same genetic potential yet differences in environment led to differences in intelligence. This study proved that environmental effects on the brain's development in mammals is very important. This type of experiment has also been done on plants. In a well-known experiment conducted by Richard Lewontin two identical groups of plants were placed in soil with different nutrient values. The plants that had less nutrients in their soil did not grow as tall as the plants with more nutrients. Same genes, different outcomes. Environment is 100% the cause of group differences.



This experiment has been referenced in classes on differential psychology (starts at 47:00):

[video=youtube;piDznzrNymE]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piDznzrNymE#t=47m00s[/video]

This is a basic principle of experimental quantitative genetics. In order to infer genetic causality for phenotypes exhibited by different genotypes those genotypes need to be reared in the same environment.
So Graves is correct when he says that simply finding measurable differences in IQ or any other form of mental testing is not indicative of genetic differences related to intelligence between groups because the environment between the groups is not equal. Now I know your argument is that there could be more than one causal factor operating on group differences in IQ (genes and environment) the lack of evidence for that idea (racial hereditarianism) is addressed in the second quote and further explored in the article by Graves that I provided which shows that genes related to intelligence do not show a racial association.

 

I've read everything you've posted. I just don't see anything leading inexorably to the conclusion that genetics play no causal role in intelligence. You and the guy you're quoting are saying things like this:

"simply finding measurable differences in IQ or any other form of mental testing is not indicative of genetic differences related to intelligence between groups because the environment between the groups is not equal."

It says that those differences are not indicative of genetic differences... but the most you've shown, if everything you've posted here is true, is that genetic causation of those differences is not proven, but that's also true of environmental causation. You both induce it from correlations.