Healthcare--a right or not?

If you derive benefits from being a member of this society, but refuse to abide by the responsibilities that imposes upon you, you can label yourself a "thief" in doing so if you wish.

 

But some people might have a problem with how you (or the government) define responsibilities.

 

If a government does not have the responsibility to help try to keep its citizens healthy and alive then it serves no other purpose

 

Someone might say that keeping healthy is a personal responsibility.

 

You are pretending there is some universally approved source that decided what is a benefit of society and what is not...I most assuredly do not grant that power to the left and I suspect you wold not grant it to me so there is hardly a set of benefits one can assess with a cost approved by society...You speak for yourself and some deluded lefties, not 320 million Americans.

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That is an easy definition...to the left my responsibility is to keep both pockets full so they can pick them and provide enough money to the lefts base so as to insure they stay bought.

 

It is....like so many things....a shared responsibility

 

No, that's what you just said.

Yes, the democratic consensus prohibits pedophilia, even though a minority wishes not to conform to that imposition upon their personal proclivities. That is how it works.

I am unaware of your local statutes regarding being required to drill wells on your property to sustain the lives of others. If there is such a statute, you should be able to organize a majority of your neighbors to have it repealed.

I support your right, as noted, to petition your elected representatives to file legislation for the nation's withdrawal from the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, or that a special exemption be granted to you personally.

Just as you could petition for the revocation of laws that criminalize pederasty.

 

So making folks more dependent makes for a better society?

 

Sure you can put men on the moon but your care for the sick hasn’t changed much from the 1930s. I’m not getting into specifics of costs for the average family just to say that a single heart bypass in the US costs well over 170,000$, not including doctor fee.
A recurring objection to single payer is ‘Why should I pay for others health care with my tax?
In the UK a married man earning an average per week with a non working wife and a single child pays 12 % of his wages in tax for health care for his whole family and the 12 % isn’t enough to cover his own family let alone pay for anyone else.

Below £155 per week wage (193$) there is nothing to pay for health care. If he looses his job and his employers’ contribution, he and his family are still fully covered.
At the age of 65 all NHS tax stops and an old aged pension is paid.

Some other related payments which are not means tested.
Statutory Maternity Pay (SMP) is paid for up to 39 weeks
90% of your average weekly earnings (before tax) for the first 6 weeks
£139.58 or 90% of your average weekly earnings (whichever is lower) for the next 33 weeks.
It is illegal to fire any women on the grounds of Statutory Maternity Leave.
Workers are legally entitled statutory holiday Paid holiday is for 5.6 weeks per year.
Family Allowance.
£20.70 per week for the 1st child and £13.70 a week for any further children.

All European members are required to operate similar measurers though there are differences.

To those who still look under their beds at night searching for commies, let me suggest something more closely to their priorities. MONEY!! Even you will admit that the price you pay for medical drugs etc is off the scale compared to what other nations pay. But when the US government pays then things change. Why? Because the bill the government pays is for 300 million plus than what Joe Soap pays, it’s called leverage i.e. If you don’t agree to the price we are prepared to pay then we’ll shop worldwide.

 

This is not a fair analogy. People who don't think they have the responsibility to pay for someone else' food are not in the same league as pedophiles.

But your response tells me that you have a very easy time dismissing the opposite side's arguments. You don't respect other people's opinions and views unless they conform to yours.

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This doesn't even begin to make sense. How is it a "shared responsibility"? If you want to stay healthy, only you can make that decision because you own your body and I don't. The rest of the society don't, either.

 

False. I am explaining that anyone who chooses to derive benefits from being a member of a society is required to contribute to the well-being of that society as democratically established and legally defined.

If I object to my taxes being squandered upon a massive militarization of the nation, I can withhold paying them, but I fully expect to incur the legal consequences for doing so.

 

I do think it's been made pretty clear now that what our friends on the left define as a right is merely the ability of the state to take from Peter to give to Paul. The immorality of these "rights" is not lost on them, but they simply don't care.

This means that when they say "right", they are using lefty-speak. It's not the same word that we use at all. Just like when they use the word "liberal", it doesn't really mean liberal at all. Same thing when they say they value 'diversity'. They don't really mean diverse, but rather anybody who is a lefty.

 

This is getting very close to the realm of mob rule. Maybe the majority is wrong and they are forcing their way on the rest, and they can do this with a clear conscience, because, hey, democracy, right?

This is like saying people can rape, but they will just have to deal with the legal consequences.

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I think when they say "diversity", it means more and more minorities until white people are almost non-existent. Ironically this would actually reduce diversity but they don't care.

 

The analogy pertains in respect to a minority opposing the ethical requirements of being a member of a society whose democratically-derived ethical standards are a matter of law.

Laws can be changed by the public demanding they be changed, if that is what most folks desire. If you don't like any law, you can advocate for its repeal.

 

If that is how you actually perceive the form of self-governance in the US, your personal alienation must be upsetting for you.

No one is above the law, and if anyone doesn't like any law, he has available to him the legal recourse of seeking to change it.


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That's not true at all. Many people benefit and never contribute anything. In fact, taxation is the one way to provide a service where payment for the service is completely unrelated to its delivery. Payment is extracted by force without any regard for quality of service or whether service is delivered, demanded, wanted, needed or not.

It's actually quite barbaric, when you think about it.

 

I never said I was unhappy with the laws or about the way US is run. I was just pointing out that when I questioned some aspect of your idea, essentially all you said was that this is how our collective society is run. If you don't like it, go elsewhere. You are closed off to other views.

 

We are all dependent on the government. And for many things we should be

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No it is a shared responsibility...much like self defense

 

Read that post again. Nothing in it said what he wants or thinks.

 

I personally do not care what you think is immoral. Morality and law are separate topics

 

There is nothing democratic about our tax laws, or Obamacare for that matter. No one knows what they do or say and both are subject to bureaucrats, unelected and uncontrollable, changing anything at any time. Just because the government demands something does not mean it is moral or evn legal

 

What rights do you have? If the law doesn't give you any?

 

How is your personal health my responsibility? Can I make you eat more veggies and fruits? Can I make you cut down your trans-fat consumption? Can I make you stop drinking and smoking (assuming that you do)? No. I can't do any of these things. You are the only person with access to your body. Only you can make your body health (or unhealthy). I am powerless to do any of these because I don't own or have access to your body.

 

Medical Health care however should be shared responsibility much like primary education. You may not have any children but your taxes will support mine in school. That makes for a better society.

 

You never did answer why you don't like your system in canada. Actually you said you liked it.
But here in the USA we can pay $1000/mo, just for the insurance. Then there's the deductible and copays.
If you don't want social health care, then you will have our system. And it's expensive.

Why does canada have gov't healthcare? Would you like it to go away?