Why don't race realist ever come up with solutions?

Genetics have been linked to the predisposition toward addiction.

https://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh312/111-118.pdf

 

OK then the misunderstanding was mine. I thought you meant race realism in the human biodiversity sense, when you're really saying is that biology is not really a limiting factor on your will.

I pretty much fundamentally disagree with that. No amount of force of will is going to turn me into Michael Jordan on the court or Stephen Hawking in the classroom. I have biological limitations to both of those goals, regardless of the strength of my will. I'm not going to will myself high altitude adaptations of a Sherpa on Everest. And I think you misunderstand Western political conservatism if you think it defines free will in the same way you do.

 

Well genetics can be a contributing factor to behavior. But it's not pre-destiny.

 

Free will is the idea that you control your decisions. No matter what biological circumstances exists, you are in control of your own decisions. For example, if someone were to say I was predisposed to have a drug addiction, my free will allow me to reject falling into drug addiction. Again, you misunderstand free will, because free will is not a claim that you can control the environment around you. It is the idea that you can control yourself and your decisions.

And you're right, you can't be Michael Jordan or Stephen Hawkins, because you're yourself and they are themselves. At best you can be a basketball player or physcisist name Lil Mike. As to if you can be as good as they are, there are factors beyond raw ability that will determine that. People forget that on paper, Michael Jordan has no natural gifts to be a great basketball player. He was way too short growing up, but he grinded and worked hard to hone his skills. And typically people who rise to the top of their respective fields don't necessarily have the "on paper" requirements to be the "best". So hard work and good decision make accounts for something.

 

Well it's true that hard work and decision making does account for something. But then, that has nothing to do with either race realism or this section, Race Relations. This is more probably a philosophy and religion issue.

 

Actually race realism does present a philosophical issue. Because it's at odds with the idea that free will could exist. If you think race determines your outcomes and success in life, and environment has no barring on that. Then you accept a reality where free will is not important. Environment assumes some degree of free will insofar it at least assume if environment changes, people will make different decisions. This is a key difference between libertarians and those who represent race realism. A libertarian may agree that black people are in a horrible state economically, but may more or less attribute it to culture and other environmental conditions. Where a race realist presumes that no matter how beneficial the environment is, the end game is that blacks are destined for failure because their genetics determine their outcome. If you believe the later, then you have to assume that blacks are human have no capacity for free will. That humans are just computer programmers basically carrying out what we've been programmed to do. This presents a major existential crisis.

This is why when people talk about race realism. I can't help but to ask, what is the actual solutions they're suggesting. There is simply no way I can believe that they put such importance on this, and have taking up a damning if no condescending attitude towards blacks, and somehow has no solution in mind. But if we're to be honest, race realism only exist for white people to feel better for themselves. They are a reactionary set of claims meant to curb white guilt, and it's just a form of cultural marxism. It's collectivist in nature, and proponents and evangelist of race realist are no different fundamdntally than other strands of marxist.

 

I thought they wanted to "send them all back to Africa". That seems to be a common refrain among them.

 

Well either you're making a strawman argument about what race realists think or else I really don't understand race realism. I don't think anyone is arguing that environment has zero bearing which is what you're saying the race realist argument is.

Bottom line (for me): A guy with an 80 IQ and 140 IQ both have equal free will. If anything though, the 140 IQ guy may be more aware of his limitations, so may feel he has "less" free will than the guy with the 80 IQ.

 

I am not misrepresenting realist in any way. Realist like to operate on a spectrum, so they like believe while indeed environment is a factor, it's mostly irrelevant and should not be considered. They assert that genetics play a far greater role in someone's success than their environment ever could. And as such whatever decisions that person makes in life can only be because of their genetic programming, and not due to any utility of the mind and it's ability to make decisions. Essentially the ability for the human mind to rationalize and make decisions should not be considered a factor in their underlying success. This is NOT a misrepresentation of what they believe. I've argued with race realist since at least 2004. I thoroughly understand their assertions. The way I'm presenting it is not the way they would present it. But it is undeniable that they do not believe in free will, because to believe in free will you have to believe a human being owns their decisions regardless of their genetic predisposition. It is important we discuss decision making, because what decisions you make have a ton to do with how successful you are. It also have to do with other circumstances of low IQ such as propensity for violence. Violence is always a choice. A race realist will always assert that blacks cannot control their impulse for violence. And to even believe in such a claim is at odds with free will

 

That most definitely is a misrepresentation of what race realists that I have heard (like Stefan Molyneux) believe. It is a misrepresentation of what I believe. What makes someone a race realist is simply that they accept the data regarding racial differences, even in the intellectual realm, even if the data returns results that are not what you wanted to hear. When the facts don't match your expectations, you change your expectations, not the facts. That is what makes one a realist.

Now the only real time when people fervently close their eyes to the data is in the case of IQ, because in your words, that makes certain races "inferior", and your white guilt can't handle that. Now I don't believe, nor have I seen any evidence, that low IQ in itself produces criminality. As Stefan points out, the culprits in that case are peer pressure, a culture which glorifies criminality, and most importantly, the epidemic of single motherhood (which is encouraged by the state of our welfare system). All of those things are well within the power of free will to change. But IQ, not so much, which was why I first used the analogy of not being able to jump six feet in the air: to demonstrate the point that biological limitations are a real thing, and that they are unrelated to free will.

 

Well if race realists are operating on spectrum, then I would say you're misrepresenting them since you've defined it as one extreme position, rather than a spectrum of positions. So rather than simply say "race realism" as if that defines it, you should break down what you specifically mean. If you mean it's someone who thinks that biological determinism accounts for 100% of human behavior and "choices," I would argue that is not a common position. I can only think of Scott Adams, who regards humans as "wet robots" that might fit in that category. But that doesn't have much to do with race and a lot to do with psychiatry.

 

Again I'm not representing any extreme position of race realism. If you hear anyone debate a race realist, the FIRST thing people will discuss in the environment. Meaning that if we increased the environmental circumstances for a given individual, this is very likely to change their outcomes. A race realist will almost always claim that even if the environment is changed, individuals circumstances do not change in any significant way. Meaning that believe that race not choice impact people's abilities. Even if a race realist concedes that environment plays some impact in someone's intellectual abilities, almost all of them claim that it's really pretty small, and genetics have an far more overwhelming influence on outcomes.

You have a tendency to want to keep this specific to IQ. But IQ test within themselves really meaning nothing. If you put emphasis on IQ test, then you have to put emphasis on it's predictive abilities. If you put emphasis on IQ test predicative abilities, then you must believe that someone can't suceed with a low IQ. If you believe low IQ leads to violence, then you have effectively asserted that people cannot control their decisions. This is pretty easy to understand. You can cherry pick my argument. But to believe in one thing you have to believe in the next thing. And a race realist believe there are fundamental differences in race. And when we say fundamental differences they believe that this impacts cognitive abilities.

Each of these factors are a chain of characteristics wholly dependent on each other. There is no way you can believe in race realism and not believe in genetic determinism. They go hand and hand. This is not a mispresentation of what race realist believe. If you want to drill down to the mechanics like how these difference manifest themselves (IQ scores being the most pervasive example), this still holds true. So let's just break down the logic here

If you believe that there is a genetic difference between races, then any noticable differences in race cannot be based on environment.

If someone believes that IQ scores are relevant, then one also have to deify their predictive abilities

If someone believes IQ scores are predictive, then one has to believe the result state that blacks have disadvantage economically and this can't be changed as it is genetic.

Genetics are more or less seen are immutable within this context.

If genetics are immutable, things like IQ scores are "fixed", and IQ scores are predictive. Then there is no other choice but to believe that no matter what someone does, they cannot change their circumstances. This IS genetic determinism. This mean there is no free will. This makes you a slave to your biology. The mind is not free to reason for itself.

Conclusion a race realist cannot believe in free will. This would imply that individuals own their choices. A racial determinist believes that race impacts your decisions.

Does this clear it up?

 

Sigh..yes and no. What it really shows is that you're trying to hammer that square peg in a round hole. Your argument really has nothing to do with race at all, but for some reason you want to keep forcing it in there, not matter how little it fits into your topic of free will.

As far as IQ's go, there is about a centuries worth of data on them and their predictive abilities. The correlation among outcomes is pretty strong. You'll find a lot of doctors who have IQ's of 120 and above, an very few with IQ's below 85. Social Science has not been able to successfully predict much, but on this issue it's done a good job. No you can choose to dismiss all that, or not, but it really had nothing to do with free will.

 

Let's bring this back full circle. If you accept that IQ is predictive. And successful professions require a good amount of IQ. Then you have to admit that if blacks have a low IQ, then blacks are unqualified for these sort of positions. So if you believe IQ test are predicative, and that IQ is genetic. Genetics, once against in this context meaning "immutable". Then it is fruitless for black people to even try to achieve anything. So it doesn't matter how determined black people are, they are destined to not succeed based on the parameters above. Because of this, there cannot exist free will. Black people cannot make any decisions to educate themselves or learn, because inevitably they can't learn. This is a fatalist viewpoint. It is in direct odds with free will.

 

Saying "blacks have a low IQ" doesn't tell the story. Blacks have a range of IQ's, from dummy level to genius level, just like whites and every other group. It still comes down to individual IQ, not group IQ. I'm neither Ashkenazi nor Asian; two groups that have a higher average IQ than mine. In the case of the Ashkenazi, they have a full standard deviation higher than my group, but that has nothing to do with my IQ, and what I can achieve.

That's why I'm not getting where you are going with this.

 

Thanos conflates "free will" with ability, for just one of his fallacies.
He's pretty much undebatable for, Ironically, reasons related TO the debate at hand.
In addition to 'lack of understanding', his posts contain the most and most egregious lying I have ever seen.
http://www.politicalforum.com/index...r-race-realist.487663/page-14#post-1066931221

We can't all win the 100 Meter Dash, and we can't all be World Chess Champions.
It doesn't matter what your "will" is.

Contrary to Thanos' Regular Lying on the subject...
I also offered at least one Reason/possible partial solution...
Reduce out of wedlock births among blacks from it's current disastrous 70%.
He Rejected it!

http://www.politicalforum.com/index...r-race-realist.487663/page-13#post-1066929700

and of course
IQ is 75% HERITABLE.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ#Estimates

and NOT coincidentally, Math and Reading in School is.... 75% Genetic!

Maths and reading skills found to be 75 per cent genetic | SBS News
http://www.sbs.com.au/news/insight/...-skills-found-be-75-cent-genetic?cid=trending
NOT schools or teachers: 75% Genetic.
(Link is Australian Public TV)

"Free will" doesn't raise your IQ/potential.
Gameover again.
+

 

The end game to so-called "race-realism" is simply to spread racism. That is all. They want people to believe in mental differences between races because they believe that this makes racism rational which is absurd but that's all it's really about. They don't care about science. They don't care about policy. They just want to get as many people as they can to believe in racism because they want to live in a world where people think like them. Why? Maybe it helps them sleep better at night. Maybe it makes them feel better about themselves during the day to believe that another person is lesser than them. Some of them are delusional enough to think that their racist policy recommendations can lead to a better world. But at the end of the day the reason that these racists are obsessed with this garbage is because in their minds propaganda is the best way for them to rationalize their racist ideology.

 

Yes, it's all forming a pretty clear picture now. He keeps starting new threads on the subject because he just wants to set up a strawman in the OP, then attack that strawman throughout the thread. So of course he would need to periodically clear the screen of people's ACTUAL arguments, and his lies about the subject, by starting a new thread. And then there's EgalitarianJay, whose ENTIRE argument is an Ad Hominem. Undebatable people.

Of course, the single greatest determinant of success or failure in life is something that he wouldn't want to consider. Because not only is solving the problem of broken homes the solution that he claims in his OP that realists NEVER EVER give, but it also has zero to do with genetics, and therefore zero to do with any lack of free will. So, like Jay, if he can't address the points that destroy his argument, he pretends that they don't exist.

 

So let me talk about myself. And why I'm at odds with race realist. I am a black man. I am also a senior software engineer, I work with complex systems, I work with logical problems, and I design solutions. I also work as a consultant helping people with their big data and cloud solutions. Now I am a highly technically competent person. And I'm sure to do what I do requires a high amount of apititude.

Now bear with me here. I was an F student throughout most of my time in school. I didn't learn to read until I was nearly 8 years old, and I basically had to teach myself how to count. Now I have never received an IQ test that I know of, and I even asked my mother, and she said "not that she is aware of". But I am willing to bet that I am one of these many black people with an 80-85 IQ.

Yet with my consultant and my job I pull in what is a top 5-7% income. I am senior in my field, and jobs I get have strict requirements. They're not affirmative action jobs. You only get these jobs if you're qualified because companies can't afford to lose money. And you have to perform to stay in them.

Now with this all out of the way. I am where I am because of my own free will. I was a high school drop out at 16 years old. But I decided to teach myself anything I could about computer science. I got old beaten up computers, I installed compilers, and I programmed. I comitted my entire life to my craft. I went to college after getting my GED, and learned computer science fundamentals like algorithmic design and analysis. I learned about algorithmic thinking. I taught myself the abstract mathematics needed to understand computers at the most fundamental level.

Had I not had free will, I would have been just another dumb negro who was broke without a job. It is my will and determination to succeed. That is why I was able to be successful.

Race realist don't think people like me exist. But I exist because of my free will. Not because of my IQ and not because of my genetics.

 

I addressed the OP and while the thread is a rehash of older threads by Thanos36 my reply addresses the key issue. I read the thread and there is nothing of substance here. Race-realism is pseudoscientific, racist propaganda. Nothing that you, Taxonomy26 or anyone else in this thread have said challenges that position.

 

Out of wedlock birth rates are due in large to government policies. Black mothers were incentivized to kick black fathers out of the home. Due to the social contract and Lydon B. Johnson's War On Poverety, he gave poor black females an incentive to get free housing and assistance from government. But they couldn't have a father in the home.

We saw a spike in out of wedlock births after that. Before this, out of wed lock births was pretty uncommon among black families. So this is not genetic. Seems to me the solution is ending welfare. But this is an environmental and social problem. It's not a racial one.

 

I don't believe your IQ is in the 80-85 range. In fact, it seems in one of your many previous "race realist" threads you stated your IQ was in the 130's, which would make sense considering your resume.

 

I took an online IQ test, and that was the result it gave me. Realistically who knows what it really is. Many people stated that the IQ test you take online are not good or accurate. Chances are that I have an 80-85 IQ.

 

The point he's making is that his struggles in school with getting bad grades and taking longer than normal to learn how to read are indicative of a person with a lower average IQ but with willpower he was able to overcome these shortcomings and get a job in a field that requires high intelligence and work ethic to become successful.

Based on what Thanos36 wrote I believe that he has some kind of mental order such as ADHD or Asperger's Syndrome which can cause a person to struggle in school despite being intelligent. People with high functioning autism especially find school difficult even though their intellect may be average or above average. Thanos36 is confusing this with having a low IQ.

Here's where he is correct, regardless of your mental abilities and characteristics you still have the freedom to make choices. Your personal decisions impact your life outcomes. There is no such thing for example as a natural-born criminal. No one is biologically compelled to commit crime and I don't care what environment they grew up in or whether or not they have a genetic predisposition to aggression they don't have to commit crimes. Environment may have an strong impact on their mental state and why they feel the need to commit crimes but at the end of the day it is a choice.

So Thanos36 is correct about free will.

Now when it comes to genetics it is true that genes impact genetic potential for intellect and there are mental problems that are influenced by genetics. For example a person suffering from mental retardation or Down's Syndrome can not go to college and earn a computer science degree. They can not become a doctor or a lawyer. They can not work a cognitively demanding job because their intellectual disability limits them. This is perfectly true. Also because genes are heritable disabilities of this nature tend to run in families. High intellect also runs in families. So there is a genetic component to why some people can't do certain jobs or have extreme difficulty working in general.

Now what race-realists have tried to do is claim that entire groups of people are on average genetically defective as if nature could somehow make a race of people incapable of functioning in a society that demands high or even average intelligence that presumably other groups are capable of. This position is scientifically indefensible and rooted in racist ideology. There is no scientific reason why an entire group within a species would be less intelligent on average than another group as if one group were simply stupid because they lack the genes for normal intelligence. Intelligence is a beneficial trait that would be favored by natural selection.

The problems that race-realists talk about when it comes to race and life outcomes are related to environment and culture which can be changed. History proves this. The entire argument of race-realism is based on a fallacy which has been debunked by the scientific community. There are many good books people who are genuinely interested in this subject can read but debates of this nature will continue because of insecure racists on the internet with nothing better to do than promote their crackpot theories that have no basis in reality.

 

If "a person suffering from mental retardation or Down's Syndrome can not go to college and earn a computer science degree" than in what way is Thanos correct about free will? He seems to be arguing that anything is possible via triumph of the will, including a low IQ person becoming a computer scientist.