Defeating the bogeyman of single payer healthcare

And rich Canadians have the means to avoid the failed Canadian single payer system. Canadian gov officials do it all the time.

 

And so do the rich of every other country. So what do you think that proves. Even in America the rich don't make doctors appointments and stand in line like the rest of us.

None of that has anything to do with the overall effectiveness of the healthcare system. Nobody doubts that the American system is the best in the world for the rich. Spend some time at the Cleveland Clinic and watch all the rich from other countries coming to take advantage of what our system can offer to the wealthy . Or go to Mayo and pay in advance And get great care if you can afford it.

The rich live in a different world and their experience is irrelevant to that of most peopke.

 

How much cheaper is cash only and is that uniform across healthcare? If I offer to pay in cash will the hospital necessarily give me a big discount?

 

Every other developed country. They all have far lower healthcare costs (2 1/2 times less on average) than we do and their healthcare outcomes are decent compared to ours.

 

It's becoming very clear, to me at least, that the biggest issue in regards to this issue is there is a certain set of the population that is downright misinformed, selfish, purposefully ignorant, and views the entire issues of health care as a privilege -- whether it be a privilege of who gets it or how much a healthcare provider should be able to charge for it.

Both views seem to be a lack of an understanding, let alone any semblance of empathy, to the ways in which people's health becomes such a critical issue.

Those opposing a single payer health system seem to have this very deep belief in a government that can do no right. They view everyone in need as being a moral degenerate to one degree or another. They view those who use government aid as fraudsters. The irony here is that they are so concerned over those who cheat the system for thousands of dollars, yet don't even bat an eye over the corporate socialism which cheats us of billions or trillions of dollars.

How do you even frame an argument with such a faulty frame of reference?

 

When in the individual insurance market I routinely asked for and received significant discounts if I paid in cash. For example a physical was $250 through insurance but $180 if paid in cash. An X-Ray of a broken collar bone was also significantly less as was the office visit to the orthopedic doctor treating it. The beauty of the health savings account is the ability of the health care consumer to act as an actual consumer. He uses his own money to purchase health care. And of course has the catastrophic policy for serious health problems.

 

You point out the countless examples of the inefficiency of government. The VA is an apt example.

Health care is a service which is purchased. Social safety nets exist to provide for those who need financial help temporarily.

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That ^^ is just stupid.

 

Those countries have gov controlled health care systems which budgetarily spend less per capita. In the US health care consumers pay for their health care through insurance company premiums. The US spends more because US consumers can afford it.

 

It proves that the Canadian system fails based on wait time. If the Canadian system was so good the Canadian rich would not travel south for treatment.

 

I will keep this mind if I ever get an expense that my insurance doesn't pay for. Do you have more data than just one example?

Insurance companies will negotiate lower rates with hospitals and usually get massive reductions in price. Without going through the insurance company I am afraid that I will have to pay those non-negotiated rates and won't have the sway that insurance companies get a good rate especially if I have already used their services and received my bill and they know they can just make me pay their rate. In addition the insurance company pays about 75% of the costs and in the cash-only option I have to pay 100%. Also if I get a very expensive problem then I will be financially screwed even if I pay in cash.

 

That doesn't sound good. We will keep getting charged more and more as long as we are barely able to afford it while other countries have been have to put a hard limit on how much they will be charged. I don't necessarily think we should do exactly what they are doing but we are doing something very wrong.

 

Yet another bumpersticker misrepresenting reality.

VERY FEW Canadians go to the US to obtain medical treatment. OTOH, about a gazillion Canadians travel to Florida and the desert in the winter and considering most of them are old farts like me, they require medical treatment and guess what? they get it and its covered under their provincial medical insurance program in large part.

So when you see that there are 50.000 some odd Canadians getting medical treatment in the US, approximately 49,632 are retired snow birds.

 

Google the collapse of the NHS and the Canadian System. In those countries the health care workers have become very powerful and exert large political influence. Those other countries limit spending by rationing to hit their budget targets. That's not a situation that in conducive to maximizing health care for the entire population.

 

Those that can afford it due to excessive wait times in Canada do so. The snow birds are an excellent example of this. They have the means and take advantage of the low wait times in the US. They do have to purchase insurance in the US however if they choose to do so.

Google the collapse of the Canadian Health Care System instead of denying the truth.

 

It was 10 years ago - I gave three examples but can only quantify one.

Of course insurance companies negotiate rates way down. If you use an HSA however the amount paid goes to the deductible and you get the cost savings if you choose to do it that way. I personally would not go through insurance and hang on to the bills until I approached the high deductible which I fortunately never exceeded. My wife was very sick one year and blew through the deductible and out of pocket maximum.

 

That was the UK not Canada.

 

I know from the quote but extended wait times due to limited resources and equipment are problems in both countries.

 

The VA program is a promise to veterans. We can definitely argue about it's effectiveness in fulfilling that promise, but would you rather eliminate it altogether? How would you incentivize the private sector to fill that promise?

What other services exist where you have no idea who will be eventually providing you services in a time where you are incoherent or physically incapable of making a choice? What other service hides its costs as much as health care?

And when more people are relying on that "safety net", there is an obvious failure in the system.

 

Canadians seek treatment abroad

The Fraser Institute, a Canadian public policy think tank, estimates that 52,513 Canadians received non-emergency medical treatment in the U.S. and other countries in 2014, a 25 percent jump from the roughly 41,838 who sought medical care abroad the previous year.

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-co...dians-increasingly-come-to-us-for-health-care

"VERY FEW Canadians go to the US to obtain medical treatment."

VERY FEW?

 

Vouchers.

Reform health insurance and health care so that prices are known. What is your point ??

That's Obamanomics.

 

Health insurance is the middle man, what more can you ask of it?

As for reforming health care, that is precisely the real debate we should be having...instead, it's about who should pay for whatever the hospitals, doctors, and pharmaceuticals ask for.

 

It's not the middle man for a combination catastrophic insurance plan with high deductible and a health savings account.

You can't debate health care without first debating health insurance. The key to reducing health care expenditures is to make health care recipients consumers who pay out of their own money for non catastrophic care. And of course policies requiring published health care procedure prices for all vendors.

 

Why don't you begin with how much you think should be the percentage of a person's income that should be reserved for health care. Should it be 5%, 10%, 15%?

While published prices would be ideal, it's not of much value to the consumer without some foundation of medical knowledge or idea of actual risks.

The same exact medical procedure can vary greatly depending on what part of the country you live in. Why not question the pricing?

You aren't offering any real solutions here, just wagging your finger around. You clearly do not seem to grasp the role of insurance, the illogic of consumers, or the complexities of medicine.

 

That's a personal choice based on preferences on insurance coverages.

The internet provides the knowledge one needs to be an effective consumer of health care.

If pricing is published the free market will result in the lowest pricing.

That's funny. I have fact based opinions based on studying the issues.

 

The hospital I went to when I had no insurance dropped the bill from over $9000 to $1500.