Arthur Jones? This should end the debate in Nazis being left or right.

Try again. Read the title too.

 

I think you know damned well that Bernie is not interested in ending capitalism. He called himself "a socialist in the tradition of FDR" and FDR boasted that he "saved capitalism". And if Bernie is not interested in ending capitalism by violent revolutionary overthrow of the government, then he is not a communist.

But I know, I know....... to you a "communist" is anyone who calls for raising taxes on the rich.

 

the Nazis' embrace of corporations and wealthy corporatists, was the antithesis of Socialism.

 

meanwhile Trump's people are pushing for nuclear war with North Korea, which would lead to millions dead...in an instant.

 

It was de facto socialism. There was no embracing of Corporations there was the government taking them over and telling them what to produce how much to produce how much to sell it for how much they can sell and to what people.

That is socialism.

 

its not socialism if one man owns a massive corporation and gets filthy rich while his workers make peanuts, even if the govt. tells him what to produce.

the key element of socialism is shared public ownership and control.

 

Yeah, and the Democratic People's Republic of Korea must be a democracy because it says so in their name. It's not like charismatic leaders don't understand the appeal of names and use that to their advantage.

Also, they purged the Strasserists in the night of the long knives, which were the faction that wanted to appeal to socialists.

You know just enough to be completely wrong.

Tell me what you think socialism means.

 

One man didn't own it the government did

Yeah the public owned it through the government.

 

One of the key factors is public ownership of the means of production

 

Exactly. But what "public ownership" entails is a subject of debate among socialists. The Marxist-Leninists think that it means the government owning it. The rest of us think that's just capitalism but with the government instead of a private boss. Some of us think that it means that workplaces should be democracies. Some of us think even that is too close to capitalism and just want the capital available for free use with an honor system of maintenance.

 

And the differs from Fascism how? What difference is there between a communist commisar and a fascist corporate leader?

The only difference between the two is who "officially" owns the means of production.

 

Facism lets the industrialists and big business keep basic control,and make a profit. That was the azi German and Facist Italian model. The industrialists and big business can and dies own the means of production under Nazi and Facist models.

 

They only keep control if they are party members and do exactly what is demanded if them by the party when demanded. How is that at all different from a Soviet commisar?

As for profit, who cares? In the Soviet system the commisars get whatever they want and live a life style of luxury. How is it different? Profit isn't important when material possessions are simply given yo you.

In how they function the systems are almost identical. Ownership is what leftists get caught up in because they are by nature possessive jealous and greedy.

 

That's what it is the government is public.

The people who think that do not understand capitalism.

Elected government is still government.

That's a drug induced pipe dream.

 

If you want to discuss this on an intellectual Basis fine if you want to let it degenerate into leftist rightist crap accusations I am not playing that game.

 

It's not an intellectual debate. It's a fact. We have seen the fascist system. We have seen the Soviet system. They are almost identical in form and function. This isn't a debate. It's a statement of fact.

 

As Mises so eloquently put it. In socialism prosperity is owned by the state. In fascism the individual is owned by the State. He exists as a means to the ends of the State. If the individual is owned by the State so too is his property.

 

And the Democratic Party must really be democratic then because after all, it says so in the name and we just blindly believe names.

 

People don't throw around the world socialist like they do democratic.

Fascism is de facto socialism. In socialism the state owns the means of production. In fascism the state owns the individual and logically through the ownership of the individual the state owns the means of production as the state owns everything the individual owns.

This is not a difficult concept.

 

I'm always quite surprised just how many white, male Americans have nazism as a hobby. You know, taking a deep interest in every nazi type story, digging around, finding out that they may not really be a nazi, not exactly, not precisely, therefore Obama Marx. And they do this not because they're triggered or identify with the character, it's simply out of concern and interest. They're never aligned with the ideology. They tell me, I believe.

Which is to say I'm entirely convinced that those who share this innocent hobby are definitely not neo nazi shithole dotards who deserve a ready shovel to the back of the head.

 

It seems you've become personally identified with the 'nazi underdog' in my story.

 

Well then my statements are facts and you can debate it if you want. LOL

 

he is not communist leaning

 

He leans that way far more than capitalist.

 

The only people who think there is a "debate" over whether Nazis are extreme right wing are other right wingers looking for rationalizations.