The atomic bombs dropped in WW2 were unecessary.

Not quite true.

Under the Meiji Constitution (1890-1947), the Emperor was the Supreme Leader and Head of State. But it was the Prime Minister who was the actual head of the government (not unlike the English system upon which it was based).

And we see that even today in the UK and Japan. Who actually makes the decisions? The Queen or Emperor, or the Prime Minister? The Prime Minister of course, the Queen and Emperor are the spiritual leaders.

The Emperor was the figurehead, and who "spoke" through the Diet and the Prime Minister. And their Constitution would be hard to believe to most reading this I am sure.

The Emperor was "sacred and inviolable", and bound to exercise his power according to the Constitution. He was the only commander of the military forces, they answered to him alone and no the Prime Minister or Diet.

However, his edicts had no legal force without the approval of the Prime Minister or the Diet. And the Diet had all control of the Legislature and making of laws, and the Judiciary was completely separate and removed from Imperial power. The extend of his power was that he could issue decrees only during times that the Diet was not in session, and once it was in session they were abolished unless the Diet approved of them.

Hmmm, a rather interesting comment actually.

That speech is most commonly called the "Jeweled Voice Broadcast. And are you aware that when it was made, the Japanese people did not know who it was that made it?

That is because it was the first time the voice of the Emperor was ever broadcast.

And to make matters worse, most who did hear it did not even really understand it. The Emperor had always been isolated from his people, and the form of Japanese he spoke was a very formal, almost ceremonial form that differed from that of the common Japanese citizen. Those who heard it did not know if he was talking about surrender or continuing to fight on no matter what.

It was actually another announcer after the speech was made that then explained to the people what the speech had actually meant, and that the war was over.

Remember, this was not Queen Victoria, or was it King George VI or Elizabeth II. The Emperor was almost never seen, and never heard. He remained in his palace leading a life of contemplation, not concerning himself with the country or it's people but striving for their spiritual future. You really do not seem to understand the role of the Emperor in his government or to his people.

 

*laughs*

Yes, it is. And yes, I am sitting upon a "pumpkin bomb" at the White Sands Missile Range in that photo, astride a copy of the Fat Man device. Doing my impersonation of a famous scene from "Dr. Strangelove". I saw that at the Missile Museum and simply could not resist.

But this particular period of history has been the one I have been most interested in of all history. The Pacific War in WWII has been my particular specialty for over 35 years now. And I believe it is impossible to really understand the war itself unless one can see how it actually started, but also how the "other side" thought during that time period.

And a lot of the confusion I find is that most "Westerners" simply do not understand the Japanese. They hear the term "Emperor", and think of European leaders. They think Napoleon, and Victoria. Tsar Nicholas and Charlemagne. Of course, "Emperor" is a translation, the actual term is "Tenno", which actually translates to "Heavenly Sovereign".

They also can not comprehend the depth of Japanese history when it comes to the Emperor. Here is one comparison:

In England, there have been at least 22 different "Dynasties" since the time of Alfred the Great (House of Wessex) in 886 CE to the House of Windsor today.

To compare, Japan has been ruled by only a single dynasty, commonly known as the Yamato Dynasty. Since Emperor Jimmu took the throne in 660 BCE. That Dynasty had been ruling Japan for over 1,200 years before Alfred took command over a unified England. It literally is almost impossible for most Westerners to comprehend a single family line ruling a nation since literally Biblical times.

And I mean that literally. Manasseh of Judah, and his son Amon (II Kings and II Chronicles) were contemporaries of Emperor Jimmu. And Emperor Akihito is the 124th direct line descendent of that founder.

And I am interested to see what happens in April. At that time Emperor Akihito will abdicate, and his son Crown Prince Naruhito will become Emperor. At that point his title will become Daijo Tenno Akihito. And so it will remain until after he passes, and becomes Emperor Heisei.

 

Many view other cultures through the lens of Western thought. An example is the goals of Islam. Also indigenous Americans. They are viewed through an unrealistic, sometimes romantic lens devoid of all reality.

So strong was Japanese loyalty to the Emperor that they would have fought to the death with pitchforks.

 

It is a concept that most Westerners simply can not comprehend. To them, all Gods are omnipotent, and their children also have supreme powers.

The closest most can understand is if they look at the term they themselves used, Arahitogamo. Literally "Kami who is a human being". Now a Kami is a spirit, and as a human being he was actually closer to being an avatar of Amaterasu, with no divine powers himself. The very concept is almost impossible to translate into English, as it incorporates things like spirit, soul, and divinity all combined together.

The closest I have been able to describe it is to understand that it is a mirror to what Joshua bar Joseph said, when he described his Kingdom being "not of this Earth". Upon their death the Emperor will arise to their Godhood as a descendent of Amaterasu, but until that time they were men like any other.

"Avatar" is another close term, so long as it is understood that the Avatar is human.

 

She also has "supreme powers" but also chose not to exercise them.

 

Thanks for the correction. 402 B-29's were lost over Japan.

"Between June 1944 and August 1945, 402 B-29s were lost bombing Japan—147 of them to Japanese flak and fighters and 255 to engine fires and mechanical failures. The atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, when combined, inflicted less damage than the great Tokyo firebomb raid."

https://warfarehistorynetwork.com/daily/wwii/b-29s-over-tokyo-the-firestorm-that-helped-end-the-war/

I don't hate them now, but I remember as a young child how much the guys who came back from the Pacific hated them -- and that hate is still imbedded deep in my soul.

Anyways, I'm very, very glad we bombed the eversmelling shat out of them, and only wish we could have done more sooner to FORCE them to surrender sooner.

 

Aside from Ike (who only voiced his misgivings to a single person just before Hiroshima was bombed), there are no records of wartime opposition to using the bombs by any of our military leaders.

 

Nonsense. Let's see a wartime quote of MacArthur opposing the use of the bombs.

They certainly didn't say anything like that during the war when the bombs were actually being dropped.

If so, then it was pretty silly of Japan to refuse to surrender until after we had nuked them twice.

No one expressed that opinion to Truman during the war when the bombs were being dropped.

 

I'd guess that every single general and admiral would agree that the war isn't over until the enemy surrenders.

I'd also guess that every single general and admiral would agree that Japan still had a large number of troops on their home islands.

Well, you did ask for generals or admirals that agreed with his statement about ground troops.

 

That was plenty of time. Japan just decided not to surrender until after the second A-bomb was dropped.

Nimitz was one of the four military leaders who was so enthusiastic about Nagasaki that they pushed the American government to drop the next bomb on Tokyo to see if it would get the attention of the Japanese government.

LeMay was one of the four military leaders who was so enthusiastic about Nagasaki that they pushed the American government to drop the next bomb on Tokyo to see if it would get the attention of the Japanese government.

Arnold was the guy who relayed the "request to bomb Tokyo next" to the US government.

 

All were against the use of the bomb in ww2 and you can not deny it

 

Fact.

The admirals and generals agreed the use of the bomb in ww2 was unnecessary

 

Fact.

The admirals and generals were against the use of the bomb in ww2

 

Of course I can deny it. They reacted to Nagasaki by pressing to have the next one dropped on Tokyo to see if it would make a stronger impression on the Japanese government.

Strange how they were so enthusiastic about using it.

 

Prove it. Let's see their published statements like I have provided

 

How come you can't quote any wartime opposition to using the bomb from anyone other than Ike?

 

I see no war time quotes from you. Why?

 

Not the only option, no, and the idea of children and old ladies fighting on the beach with sharp sticks is ridiculous propaganda. It was ridiculous propaganda at the time, it was meant to be ridiculous propaganda at the time. It was a last ditch attempt by the government to stir up public sentiment which had by then turns very much against the military government in Japan by a people starving to death and very very tired of war. Repeating that nonsense about old ladies and children fighting on the beach with sharp sticks is extremely Durrant and childishly naïve.

 

Here are some excerpts from "Weapons for Victory: The Hiroshima Decision" by Robert James Maddox, with a link to Google Books where available:

Page 124
------------
According to the courier who delivered Admiral King's Letter stating that the first bomb was expected to be available in August, Nimitz read it and then said, "This sounds fine, but this is only February. Can't we get one sooner?" Far from opposing the bombs, after Hiroshima and Nagasaki he favored using a third on Tokyo.50
http://books.google.com/books?id=NQHSxnDN0_gC&pg=PA124
------------
50. For Nimitz's concurrence in using a third atomic bomb against Tokyo, see Commanding General 313th Bomb Wing to General Nathan Twining, August 9, 1945, and Twining to Nimitz and Spaatz confirming their discussions, same date, both in Box 24, Spaatz Papers.
http://books.google.com/books?id=NQHSxnDN0_gC&pg=PA184
------------

Page 141:
------------
On August 9, Spaatz and General Nathan Twining, commander of Twentieth Air Force, urged dropping a third on Tokyo. LeMay, (who later claimed that atomic bombs "had nothing to do with the end of the war") and Admiral Nimitz concurred. Spaatz explained on the tenth that "the psychological effect on the government officials still remaining in Tokyo is more important at this time than destruction." The next day Arnold sent word to Spaatz that the recommendation was "being considered on a high level."48
Page 141 Not Linked on Google Books
------------
48. The LeMay quotation is in Alperovitz, Atomic Diplomacy, 17. For LeMay, Spaatz and Nimitz recommendation, see Commanding General 313th Bomb Wing to Twining, August 9, and Twining to Nimitz and Spaatz, same date; Spaatz quotation is from Spaatz to General Lauris Norstad (Arnold's chief of staff), August 10, and Arnold's reply is in Norstad to Spaatz, same date, all in Box 24, Spaatz Papers.
Page 188 Not Linked on Google Books
------------


Page 143:
------------
There is evidence that a third bomb might have been dropped on Tokyo as Spaatz, Twining, LeMay, and Nimitz had recommended. On August 9, General Marshall had stated that if Japan did not surrender "it was only a question of days for Tokyo to suffer the effects of the new explosive." On the fourteenth, after meeting with Truman about midday, a British official accompanying the visiting Duke of Windsor reported to London that the president had "remarked sadly that he now had no alternative but to order an atomic bomb to be dropped on Tokyo."58
http://books.google.com/books?id=NQHSxnDN0_gC&pg=PA143
------------
58. Marshall's words are from O'Laughlin letter; Truman's are from Minister John Balfour to Ernest Bevin, August 14, 1945, Bevin private papers (FO 800), Public Record Office, Kew.
Page 188 Not Linked on Google Books
------------
Part of footnote 35: John Callan O'Laughlin to Herbert Hoover, August 11, PPI, Herbert Hoover Presidential Library. O'Laughlin's five-page, single-spaced letter is based on what must have been a lengthy talk with Marshall on August 9. The author is indebted to Professor Gary Clifford for providing a copy. Hereafter it will be referred to as "O'Laughlin letter."
http://books.google.com/books?id=NQHSxnDN0_gC&pg=PA187
------------

I've given you lots of wartime quotes over the years.

 

I see not a single war time quote here. Just opinion.

Your claim is dismissed

 

Had Japan continued to refuse to surrender, the US would have invaded.

What about 30 divisions of the Japanese Army fighting on the beaches?

What about thousands of Kamikazes sinking our troop transports as we invaded?

 

August 9 1945 very much counts as wartime.

Specifically, the opinion of General LeMay, General Spaatz, General Twining, and Admiral Nimitz.

Denying reality is a futile tactic.

 

Third hand opinions about possible quotes. You have nothing.


Your claim is dismissed

 

Wrong. Real quotes.

No opinion other than the opinions of top generals and admirals expressed during the war.

I have General Spaatz, General LeMay, General Twining, and Admiral Nimitz.

Denying reality is futile.

 

Just show me one direct quote. One