The coming civil war over abortion

Getting pregnant doesn't mean anyone other than you is responsible for it, nor does it mean you can just kill your child because your lack of personal responsibility led to conception.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
you are correct...so the only point of WASTING all that tax money on asinine laws can ONLY be to punish and harass women and make their lives even harder....


Laws and protection from those who want to take away other's rights have nothing to do with "morals"....

YOUR "morals" don't matter to anyone else, nor should they.

The government does NOT sanction abortion, it protects women from having their rights destroyed by Anti-Choicers, THAT is the government's job...it isn't to pass moral judgement on citizens..


FINE! Discourage the reasons women have abortions by guaranteeing NO woman will ever lose her job no matter how much time she has to take off of work for pregnancy and child care.


Discourage abortions by paying all women a living wage on the same scale as the man next to her doing the same job.


Keep funding entities that aid poor CHILDREN like Welfare, WIC, SNAP...entities that the RIGHT is constantly cutting funds to..


Make insurance companies provide affordable reliable birth control ..


There's some ideas...I guess you're all for that , right??? RIGHT?

It's no one else's business, it IS ALL the woman's responsibility, hers to do as she pleases

NO one is advocating for killing a CHILD and it is flamebait to say they are.

Nor should lack of responsibility lead to being punished by being forced , LIKE A SLAVE AND A RAPE VICTIM, to gestate.




I see you couldn't address/refute my post

 

I really haven’t spent a lot of time on the Alabama law. It does sound extreme. I’m assuming it is designed to get the issue back to the SC as quickly as possible. If it goes there and the SC gives control back to states, how do you feel about that?

As far as polling on this issue I doubt it lines up well with people’s actual beliefs or voting proclivities. Too much social pressure to give “correct” answers. I don’t know if it means anything but it’s interesting the percentages of pro choice vs pro life have stayed in a very narrow range for decades in most polls. On other social issues like gay marriage the opposite is true.

Your question on how those moderates on abortion feel about the Alabama law/using force. I don’t see any moderates. Around here there don’t seem to be any. It’s a relevant point though. I’m content to watch it play out and try and get people to actually think about the issue instead of emotionally attacking each other.

 

My moral beliefs mean much more to me than a hopelessly cobbled together, ridiculously compromised document pieced together by a discordant committee of wealthy landowners near the end of the 18th century.

 

So how is this civil war going to start? Do you support it?

 

And you seem to think that it is 'slavery' to face the consequences of one's actions. I don't give a fly rats arse if they get an abortion, that is their business. You seem to miss that point, but it is NOT slavery if the result of their actions is gestation.

They can get an abortion, regardless of the laws in a particular State, or even if RvW is overturned. It just might not be under the conditions they would prefer. And while you are at it, it IS 'Big Governments' business if they are paying for it, or subsidizing it, which means, the tax payers are paying for it.

You really have no idea about what 'slavery' actually is. A person has responsibility for their actions... just as if they chose to commit a crime (and no, having sex is not a crime before you go off the deep end again) and end up in jail... they have no say what happens to their body, but it sure isn't slavery.... it's the physical responsibility for one's actions.....

 

Where did I say the Right would start a civil war? My comments have been about which side has been pushing TALK about civil war. I believe every civil war thread has been started by a conservative. That's all I pointed out. I never said anything about who would start a civil war. Again....try to read what I actually post instead of what you think I post.

 

NO, I DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER SAID THAT AND THAT MAKES YOU A L---....a "misrepresenter"


I stated CLEARLY IN ENGLISH that slavery is taking away one's right to one's own body which is what banning abortion does.

Tax payers DO NOT PAY FOR ABORTIONS AND NO ONE HAS EVER PROVED THEY DO.

HOWEVER, YOU seem fine with having to raise taxes to pay for all those poor kids who will now be born.

OR will righties , true to their past, still cut funding to entities like Welfare, SNAP, WIC that AID CHILDREN???

SO what IS IT? Being forced to pick cotton? That's all you think it is???

As I have REPEATEDLY said, YES THEY do....THEY DO, not YOU.

Wow, contradicted yourself in one sentence…..if sex is not a crime then why are you comparing it to a crime?
CRIMINALS DO have a say in their own bodies, they cannot be forced to use their body to sustain another's life, for example, they cannot be forced to give their heart or blood or spare kidney to someone else.

YOU want pregnant women treated worse than criminals, you want to FORCE them to have to use their bodies to sustain the life of another..... THAT is slavery.






it's the physical responsibility for one's actions.....

 

If the fetus (unborn baby) could be removed from the mother and allowed to grow to full viability WITHOUT endangering either the life or health of the mother would you support restrictions on abortion rights then?

 

Using big bold bright red letters really doesn't play out well, it means you can't carry the argument.

What part of the phrase 'you seem to think' is unclear? Did I say 'you think', with no modifier? No, I did not.

How many times must I explain that I am pro-choice, if you want an abortion, have at it.

If the 'government' subsidizes abortions, exactly where do you think the 'government' gets the money to do so? I truly hope you understand the concept of taxation....

Slavery is when by no choice of your own, you are forced to do something. When a person has sex without contraception, they made a choice. The consequences of that choice is not slavery.

Once you get past your misconception (pun intended) of what slavery actually is, then perhaps you will understand why I used the example of going to jail.....

 

Prove I am wrong

Prove that there are women who choose to go through months of pregnancy onltpy to decide at the last minute that they do not want a baby

 

Are you willing to pay the $1000 a day expenses in a NICU?

 

I have no problem with the issue going back to the States so long as the State does not violate the founding principles with respect to individual liberty and the rule of law.

The problem with the Alabama Law is that it violates the founding principles and is illegitimate on that basis. Law messing with individual liberty on the basis of "simple majority mandate" or 50+1 is illegitimate. If Alabama holds a referendum which can get 67% approval for the proposed ban on abortion after 6 weeks then the Gov't is acting on a legitimate basis. If it does not operate on this basis it is not.

 

No. I believe it should exclude rape, incest, and intellectual disability (women with Down Syndrome etc). I would also like to see a general exception for the confirmed contra-indicated pregnancy (where the pregnancy is a threat to the woman's life due to some disease or genetic state). I would not make exceptions for 'mental health' reasons. If you're functioning well enough to engage in romantic/sexual relationships, you are not disabled. Besides, it can be very easily faked for convenience.

Basically, I would like to see it come under the old established law + ethic of 'do no harm'. The upshot of which is that medical procedures in the absence of medical necessity were once illegal. Then we invented cosmetic surgery. And then obstetrics slipped under the radar (with the rise of elective caesarian sections). These two fields, plus abortion, remain the three exceptions to the 'do no harm' ethic.

 

He's referring specifically to women who were NOT raped. In which case his question is very good.

 

You're telling me! I'm constantly labelled a Rightist, yet I've never voted anything but Left in my entire voting life (35 years of voting).
I regard it as a) junior high, and b) an astonishing lack of tolerance for diversity in PF Lefties. There is no Leftist dogma on anything outside of economics/pragmatics. All else is ideology, religiously applied.

 

Who forced her to conceive?

 

How DARE humanity expect humanity to live responsibly. What an outrage!

 

Did she not exercise her right to acquire the pregnancy? Her choice was freely made.

 

The original choice being the one which actually matters. Every one of these (non rape) pregnancies is freely and wilfully entered into.

 

It's not an 'other' decision, it's THE decision.

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
NO, I DO NOT AND HAVE NEVER SAID THAT AND THAT MAKES YOU A L---....a "misrepresenter"

I stated CLEARLY IN ENGLISH that slavery is taking away one's right to one's own body which is what banning abortion does.

Tax payers DO NOT PAY FOR ABORTIONS AND NO ONE HAS EVER PROVED THEY DO.

HOWEVER, YOU seem fine with having to raise taxes to pay for all those poor kids who will now be born.

OR will righties , true to their past, still cut funding to entities like Welfare, SNAP, WIC that AID CHILDREN???

SO what IS IT? Being forced to pick cotton? That's all you think it is???

As I have REPEATEDLY said, YES THEY do....THEY DO, not YOU.

Wow, contradicted yourself in one sentence…..if sex is not a crime then why are you comparing it to a crime?
CRIMINALS DO have a say in their own bodies, they cannot be forced to use their body to sustain another's life, for example, they cannot be forced to give their heart or blood or spare kidney to someone else.

YOU want pregnant women treated worse than criminals, you want to FORCE them to have to use their bodies to sustain the life of another..... THAT is slavery.

it's the physical responsibility for one's actions.....

No, it doesn't, it points out the glaring error of the other poster..

A weak quibble, you stated "I seemed"...which was untrue.

IT DOESN'T.

WHERE does the government get the money to pay for more and more poor children as more and more women can't get an abortion?

I hope you truly understand it will be from taxpayers.

YUP! Key words "NO CHOICE".....exactly what banning abortion is....being FORCED to gestate.

so you think that having sex means a person has no further CHOICES? Ridiculous! That's saying having sex is a crime!!!!!!
.

Not being able to rectify the consequences IS slavery.

Once you, AND OTHERS, get past the idea that having sex is a crime punishable by forced gestation ………...

 

Why? Are you under the impression that the majority of Americans like killing babies?

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
"Choice" in the abortion issue refers to the choice to gestate or not ...it does not apply to every other decision the woman makes in her life.

That's what I said..

 

FoxHastings said: ↑
Babies who were born because the woman was FORCED like a slave) to give birth

Who said she was forced to conceive? Not me.