Faith vs Science?

Discussion in 'Religion & Philosophy' started by usfan, Sep 16, 2018.

  1. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    No there isn’t
     
  2. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    By everything came together at once, I mean its impossible to have a being with half a heart or half a stomach.
    blind , random chance does not give rise to design. You will never hear of a tornado whipping through a junkyard and leaving a fully formed 747 jet, a Mercedes, and a skyscraper in its wake. Why? Blind chance cannot do that.
    If you placed all the pieces of a watch into a shoebox and shook it for ten minutes, do you believe it would shake into a functioning watch? Of course not. What if you shook it for a year? Would a functioning watch then come out of the box? Say you were able to shake it for five billion years; would you then have a functioning watch? There is no possible way for that happen. And if it couldn't happen by chance to something relatively simple like a watch, it most certainly couldn't happen by chance to our magnificently complex universe.
    Consider some of the amazing aspects of design that are evident in our solar system:
    1. The earth is positioned at just the right distance from the sun so that we receive exactly the proper amount of heat to support life. The other planets of our solar system are either too close to the sun (too hot) or else too far (too cold) to sustain life.
    2. Any appreciable change in the rate of rotation of the earth would make life impossible. For example, if the earth were to rotate at 1/10th its present rate, all plant life would either be burned to a crisp during the day or frozen at night.
    3. Temperature variations are kept within reasonable limits due to the nearly circular orbit of the earth around the sun.
    4. The moon revolves around the earth at a distance of about 240,000 miles, causing harmless tides on the earth. If the moon were located 1/5th of this distance away, the continents would be completely submerged twice a day!
    5. The thickness of the earth's crust and the depth of the oceans appear to be carefully designed. Increases in thickness or depth of only a few feet would so drastically alter the absorption of free oxygen and carbon dioxide that plant and animal life could not exist.
    6. The earths's axis is tilted 23 degrees from the perpendicular to the plane of its orbit. This tilting, combined with the earth's revolution around the sun, causes our seasons, which are absolutely essential for the raising of food supplies.
    7. The earth's atmosphere (especially the ozone layer) serves as a protective shield from lethal solar ultraviolet radiation, which would otherwise destroy all life.
    8. The earth's atmosphere also serves to protect the earth by burning up approximately twenty million meters each day that enter it at speeds of about 30 miles per second! Without this crucial protection, the danger to life would be immense.
    9. The two primary constituents of the earth's atmosphere are nitrogen (78 percent) and oxygen (20 percent). This delicate and crucial ratio is essential to all life forms.
    10. The earth's magnetic field provides important protection from harmful cosmic radiation.
    All of this happened just by chance? What do you believe as you consider the evidence?
     
    Last edited: Jul 9, 2019
  3. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    Do you think bacteria proves evolution? When food is bad, it becomes infected with bacteria.
     
  4. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    That only "Proves" that bacteria eat.
     
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  5. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Have you ever stopped to consider for a moment that everything seems perfectly designed because animals (including us) evolved here to fit our environment vs. our environment being created to fit us?
     
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  6. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    It doesnt prove evolution.

    I wasnt saying it proves evolution, I was trying to reconcile the two concepts
     
  7. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    So according to you complex nature requires a creator, i.e., God. Does God then require a creator?

    Starting from the big bang that created the Universe our current science has mostly explained the creation of the universe and that explanation accounts for all of the things you mention.
     
  8. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    God is the self existing eternal Godhead.

    If there was a big bang, where did the material come from?

    Infinite regress is impossible.
     
  9. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    The two have nothing in common making reconciliation pointless. Bacteria do correlate to evolution when they evolve in real time due to population density and reproductive intensity.
     
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  10. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    That is microevolution not macroevolution. Heres an analogy.

    Its impossible to be sinless but its possible to not sin.

    One is talking about the big picture, one is talking about individual cases.
     
  11. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    It is unfortunate that you must wiggle around to keep your faith in this invisible super entity, it also makes discussion or debate a pointless pursuit.

    Have A Nice Day:

    By the way...Micro evolution IS macro evolution, the only difference is time.
     
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  12. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    [​IMG]
    The Ipuwer papyrus records many of the plagues of the Exodus.

    The Israelite enslavement in Egypt and the Exodus took place during the Middle Kingdom of ancient Egypt, which would be the eleventh twelfth and thirteenth dynasties. This period came to an abrupt end when the Hyksos, foreign Asiatic invaders, swept in and rapidly took over Egypt, ruling for the next 400 years. So what allowed this conquest to take place? It was that Egypt was ravaged by a series of disasters and plagues just prior to the Hyksos invasion. And this is recorded in the Ipuwer Papyrus, an ancient poem written by an Egyptian scribe named Ipuwer, who records the aftermath of the plagues upon Egypt and the sweeping conquest of the Hyksos. The document also known as “The Admonitions of An Egyptian Sage”, was originally translated by famed archeologist A.H. Gardinder. Russian Scholar Immanuel Velikovsky, in his book Ages In Chaos, made the connection that the Ipuwer Papyrus confirms much of the historical account of the Exodus as recorded in the Bible.


    One historian, who disagreed with many of Velikovsky’s conslusions, still writes:

    The synchronism, however, is still valid, and Velikovsky was quite right to connect the two accounts [the Biblical Exodus and the events of the Ipuwer papyrus]. But, rather than simultaneously describing the same plagues, it appears that Moses recorded Act I of the drama: the devastation of Egypt and the escape of the Israelites at the hand of the Lord; and that Ipuwer described Act II: the conquest of Egypt by the Hyksos on the heels of the Exodus. Velikovsky identified the Hyksos as the Biblical Amalekites whom the Israelites battled in the desert at Rephidim after crossing the Red Sea. That provides a further link between the two accounts. (source).

    There has been much controversy surrounding the Ipuwer Papyrus (as there is with much of the ancient historical evidence that confirms the Bible). But in this instance, the majority view on both sides were not entirely correct. What the papyrus records is the invasion of the Hyksos which took place on the heel of the plagues of the Exodus. So it is not a parallel account of the Exodus but rather a reflection on the judgments of the Exodus in light of the invasion that followed. But in its description, there are startling descriptions that are completely in line with the Biblical account.

    The Similarities From Secular History



    [​IMG]
    There are startling similarities between Egyptian history and the Bible.

    Looking at the Ipuwer papyrus alongside Scripture reveals startling similarities:

    Earthquakes

    Right after the Israelites left slavery, The Lord appeared to them in the wilderness. The Bible records God’s presence as causing a great deal of earthquake and volcanic activity:

    And mount Sinai was altogether on a smoke, because the LORD descended upon it in fire: and the smoke thereof ascended as the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mount quaked greatly. – Exodus 19:18.

    PAPYRUS 2:11 The towns are destroyed. Upper Egypt has become dry…
    PAPYRUS 3:13 All is ruin!
    PAPYRUS 7:4 The residence is overturned in a minute.
    PAPYRUS 4:2 …Years of noise. There is no end to noise.
    PAPYRUS 6:1 Oh, that the earth would cease from noise, and tumult (uproar) be no more.

    Plague of Blood

    [​IMG]
    The plague of blood is recorded in Egyptian historical records.

    Thus saith the LORD, In this thou shalt know that I am the LORD: behold, I will smite with the rod that is in mine hand upon the waters which are in the river, and they shall be turned to blood….And the LORD spake unto Moses, Say unto Aaron, Take thy rod, and stretch out thine hand upon the waters of Egypt, upon their streams, upon their rivers, and upon their ponds, and upon all their pools of water, that they may become blood; and that there may be blood throughout all the land of Egypt, both in vessels of wood, and in vessels of stone. And Moses and Aaron did so, as the LORD commanded; and he lifted up the rod, and smote the waters that were in the river, in the sight of Pharaoh, and in the sight of his servants; and all the waters that were in the river were turned to blood. And the fish that was in the river died; and the river stank, and the Egyptians could not drink of the water of the river; and there was blood throughout all the land of Egypt. – Exodus 7:17-21.

    PAPYRUS 2:5-6 Plague is throughout the land. Blood is everywhere.

    PAPYRUS 2:10 Men shrink from tasting — human beings and thirst after water.
    PAPYRUS 3:10-13 That is our water! That is our happiness! What shall we do in respect thereof? All is ruin!
    Plague Upon Cattle

    Behold, the hand of the LORD is upon thy cattle which is in the field, upon the horses, upon the asses, upon the camels, upon the oxen, and upon the sheep: there shall be a very grievous murrain. And the LORD shall sever between the cattle of Israel and the cattle of Egypt: and there shall nothing die of all that is the children’s of Israel. And the LORD appointed a set time, saying, To morrow the LORD shall do this thing in the land. And the LORD did that thing on the morrow, and all the cattle of Egypt died: but of the cattle of the children of Israel died not one. – Exodus 9:3-6."

    Quoted from did the exodus really happen-historical evidence of the exodus-by beginning and end.
     
  13. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    What do you mean by that exactly? What are examples of macro evolution?
     
  14. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    I agree - that's true for many people.

    I think that works regardless of whether there actually exists a supernatural. It has to do with the belief and faith.
     
  15. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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    What do you mean by that?
     
  16. tecoyah

    tecoyah Well-Known Member Past Donor

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    Micro evolution is real time mutation as life adapts, Macro evolution is the accumulation of said mutations leading to larger adaptation over long time frames...they are in essence the same thing over time. Fossil evidence clearly shown the result of species adaptation when reviewed...whales are an excellent example of environment creating changes over extremely long periods (millions of years) as land based creatures became aquatic in the quest for food.


    Though this is obviously a very simple animation, these are real fossil animals that have many major bone/body indicators of ancestor correlation.
     
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  17. JET3534

    JET3534 Well-Known Member

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    Where did your God come from?

    I don't know, therefore God did it, hardly seems logical.

    I noticed you dodged the vestigial organs question. Since you don't believe in evolution what is your explanation for vestigial organs? A mistake from the all perfect creator perhaps?

    Face it. God did not invent man. Man invented God.
     
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  18. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    There is no evidence the biblical exodus ever happened.
     
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  19. rahl

    rahl Banned

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    And you exempting your god from infinite regress is special pleading.
     
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  20. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    Your beliefs have meaning for you.

    That would be true whether or not the god you believe in actually exists.
     
  21. WillReadmore

    WillReadmore Well-Known Member

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    That sounds like a pretty darn serious algae bloom.

    Unfortunately, they may not have had sufficient wells to be independent of river water for drinking.
     
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  22. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Divine fallacy AKA arguments from incredulity are primarily based upon an absence of knowledge.

    Just to make the point with the asinine watch example given above the parts themselves are UNIQUE and can ONLY be fitted together in a certain order. Shaking them around might result in one or two parts meshing but more than likely they will merely become ENTANGLED instead.

    Compare that to millions of cells being placed into a shoebox and shaken up. Since they are all SIMILAR they will generate static electricity and end up clumping together which could result in interesting variations as the cells on the outside of the clumps adapt to being rubbed against other cells while those in the center of the clumps adapt to being compressed together and others adapt to using the static electricity as an energy source. After a few billion years there could well be at least one new type of life form that has evolved to survive inside a shaken shoebox.

    That is the difference between incredulity and knowledge.
     
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  23. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    This fossil ...

    [​IMG]

    https://www2.palomar.edu/anthro/earlyprimates/early_2.htm

    evolved into all of these species.

    [​IMG]
     
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  24. The Amazing Sam's Ego

    The Amazing Sam's Ego Banned at Members Request

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  25. Derideo_Te

    Derideo_Te Well-Known Member

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    Kneejerk denialism does not refute documented scientific knowledge.

    Our own DNA is SHARED with our ape cousins which could only occur if we had a common ancestor. We even share 90% of our DNA with cats. Obviously we all evolved from a common mammalian ancestor and even further back from a common sea dwelling creature.
     

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