Hamas fires rockets at Israel

All I'm saying is that YHWH and El were different gods from the beginning, something your source doesn't seem to dispute.

I'm not sure what are you trying to prove. That Israelite's were a people like any other? This is not exactly breaking news.

 

Evolution means change, not progress. Scientifically speaking.

You're basically advocating for isolation and segregation between members of the human race based on their geographical location. You forget that the presence itself of humans in geographical locations all over the world is the result of migrations triggered by human agendas. Agendas are a natural by product of the evolutionary process.

There are still places where human societies live in complete isolation for millennia. Like that island near India whose inhabitants kill any stranger on sight. Natural unimpeded agenda-less evolution. Wonderful thing.

"Artificial" is a convention, not a real thing. Everything is natural. We are nature. It's in our nature to boost and suppress, to improve, to impose changes. Your basic premises are flawed.

While I agree that aggressively seeking to change another society is not advisable, I'm also aware that interactions between different societies ultimately play a positive role.

 

Nothing in my post advocates isolation -- and I am entirely both aware of the benefits, and welcoming, of interactions between different peoples and cultures. You are shooting down straw men.

My message is self-explanatory and what you have said (if it makes you feel better) isn't what I am going to dispute with much either as I don't find it contrary to my fundamental point. Except, at this stage in human history, and dealing with long established civilizations, I remain unconvinced that no abrupt, forcible, and ideologically driven agenda is going to produce anything better than the misery that the creation of the state of Israel has brought to much of the region.
p.s.
You can nitpick on any of these terms as you did with 'artificial'. Semantics is not the issue to me. The description should be clear: sudden, abrupt or 'aggressive" (in place of 'artificial') in the contest of the existing conditions in these societies. As opposed to any forces that bring about evolutionary, non-abrupt, and in the process, endogenously driven changes.

 

I am reminded reading the debates here about "Jewish mythology" about something I have often pondered: specifically, how history might have been recounted if so much of it wasn't based on myths and legends from the Abrahamic religions? And instead better attention was paid to the Iranian mythology and its own historiography instead?

On the latter, here are some extended excerpts from an article about the Shahnameh to introduce people here to a different conception of history. The one which has colored how Iranians have viewed not just politics, but even issues of morality and justice, for thousands of years regardless of the changing political winds. Since, in Iranian mythology, IRAN itself is born from the lineage of the son of a mythical Iranian king, namely Fereydun, who also had two other sons who each were given other realms, one to our East (Turan), and one to our West including in regions under discussion in the Near East, I can expand on the Iranian mythology and its view of these other nations besides the Iranians later.

http://www.bbc.com/culture/story/20180810-the-book-of-kings-the-book-that-defines-iranians
The Book of Kings: the book that defines Iranians
An epic poem written in the 11th Century helped save the Persian language, writes Joobin Bekhrad.

 

It was always called Palestine and it was a province of Syria. Shakespeare and Chaucer refer to Palestine. Justifying theft and ethnic cleansing is a shabby business. The Palestinians didn't immigrate from Europe and Russia.

 

Most Gazans were not born in Gaza.. They were forced out of the Negev and the West Bank. ALL of it belonged to Egypt including Sinai, Gaza and all of Canaan at the time of the fictional Moses.

 

Arabs have been in Palestine long before the advent of Islam. Zipporah and Keturah were both Arabs. The Samaritans were half Arab.. Perhaps that's why Judah always trashed Israel and called them fake Jews.

Palestine had stamps, currency and newpapers.. and yes they were "Palestinians".. That's what they were always called in the Arab world. ALL the documents refer to Palestine.

See Palestine Papers, Avalon Project, Yale.

The Avalon Project : British White Paper of 1939
https://avalon.law.yale.edu/20th_century/brwh1939.asp
The nature of the Jewish National Home in Palestine was further described in the Command Paper of 1922 as follows "During the last two or three generations the Jews have recreated in Palestine a community now numbering 80,000, of whom about one fourth are farmers or workers upon the land.

The Middle East 1916 - 2001

https://avalon.law.yale.edu/subject_menus/mideast.asp

 

Arabs come from where, Arabia?
Jews come from where? New York?

One of the complaints made against the Arabs after 1948 was that they never
saw themselves as being conquered. A bit like Germany after WWI.
After WWII both Germany and Japan fully acknowledged their defeat and
rebuilt their nations into peaceful and powerful economic nations.
It will probably take nuclear warfare - total warfare involving the whole
world (like both Armageddon and the Magog wars of the Old Testament)
before it sinks in to the Arab mind that they lost the wars they started.
And the rest of us suffer in the bargain.

The Arabs threaten to kill all the Jews if they win, but appeal to the UN and
Russia (plus Israel's humanity) when they lose. The Arabs I speak to believe
that Israel is "afraid" to use its full military power against them. This is a serious
misreading of the Israeli mindset.

Should it come to total warfare then America and Russia will be involved. Plus
Iran, the Arab states (read Ezekiel 38-39) I would imagine Pakistan would get
involved as it is nuclear powered - and this will involve India too. It's going to
be interesting - and all over a tiny speck of land which is one tenth of one percent
of the total Arab nations.

In the 1800's the thought of Jews returning to Palestine was ridiculed. So too
the idea that the whole world would be engaged in warfare within the Israelite
borders. Looks like both prophecies are going to happen.

 

I have stated previously that El and YHWH were different Gods .. El the God of Abraham .. YHWH the God of Moses. The characteristics of El were then assimilated into YHWH.

You seemed to think that there was some big distinction between Jews and Arabs back in ancient times during the supposed glory days of Israel.. I hope I have cleared that up for you.

 

The Arabs said (ie Egypt's Nassa) there won't be any Jews left in Palestine.
Islamic Jihad, ISIS and other groups say much the same. That's their official
govt policy.

Can you point out an official govt policy of Israel to kill or remove Arabs from
Palestine?
If so, how come the Arab population in Israel, Gaza and the West Bank is
booming?

 

Go source that.

It is the law of the Jew state that Arabs who got ethnically cleansed by the Jew are banned from returning and their property to be thieved. With that, they thieved 90% of all what the Arabs own in Israel. The Jew state also has as an ongoing policy to thieve from Arabs across the border. People who object get shot. Subsequently the Jew state shoots at children, elderly, the press, and health workers. But I guess some would say... it's all a coincidence.

 

Not so fast.
Israel gave back land to Egypt that was lost when Egypt lost two wars with Israel.
Israel gave back to Syria "some" of the Golan Heights after Syria lost two wars with Israel
... and Israel offered to give back the entire Golan if Syria would sign a comprehensive peace
treaty with Israel.
Israel vacated all land it occupied with Gaza and offered Gaza land in the Negev - after Gaza
fought and lost fights against Israel.

And, the West Bank has been offered 97% of its territory back, plus land inside of Israel to
make up the remaining 3%.

And, Israel has said it would negotiate the return of refugees should Fatah enter into a final
treaty on permanent peace with Israel and an end to future land negotiations - Fatah refused.

So I see the problem lying with the Arabs.
This is Jewish land traditionally - it was their nation once.
The Jews were happy to do a deal with the Arabs that gave the Arabs all the West Bank and
even the ancient Jewish capital of Jerusalem - the Arabs refused.

So in the next major war when Arabs go to liberate Palestine I suggest Israel just use nukes.
That might settle the issue.

 

I asked you to source something. And you're just not complying.
Also, nothing you wrote is disputing what I wrote.

It would settle the fait of the Jews world wide. Ethnically cleansing 90% of the Arab civilian population wasn't enough. They had to violently oppress them for half a century. And now you have this... nazi like final solution. Superb.

 

That's true. The invasion of Western countries by Arab "refugees" is leading
to a rise in antisemitism in Europe. That's fine - the Jews can go live in the
West Bank.
About 150,000 of the 480,000 ethnically cleansed Jews from the Middle East
went to Palestine. I hope the majority of them are now in the West Bank - that
would be KARMA.

No Arab nation has offered to take back the Jews it cleansed - peace or no
peace. There's an old bible saying that the people who bless Jews will be
blessed, and those that curse Jews will be cursed. That has been born out in
history, hasn't it?

 

^^
Muslims....

Because they weren't ethnically cleansed.

Well. The Jews have been cursing themselves in Israel for the rest of them.

 

I have shattering news for you. Soviet inspired rhetoric won't help you with this Israeli. Although I'm not strictly speaking right wing, I don't see all of the right wing as blood sucking imperialistic demons.

No Arab would have been forced out of his home if greedy hateful Arab leaders didn't go on a holy pan-Arab nationalistic crusade against the tiny Jewish settlement in the twenty something percent of Palestine allotted to Jews. War is ugly, bad stuff happens.

May I gently but firmly remind you that most of the British Mandate, more than 70% of Palestine, had already been given to Arabs by a very generous and international law violating government of UK, plus another 3 brand new Arab states. Arabs were not excluded from the political process of self determination in the Middle East.

Anti-Zionists' arguments are based on faulty premises. Zionists didn't arrive in Palestine on tanks and immediately threw Arabs from their homes. Neither the Ottomans, nor the British, would have allowed it, by the way. There was a war, started by Arabs. Wars have consequences. About 14 million ethnic Germans had been expelled from their homes in Eastern Europe following WWII (no special UN agency for them, though, and oddly no right of return). Migrations - even mass migrations - are a natural result of wars.

Following the path you seem to favor, we can also ask ourselves why do anti-Zionists claim only Arabs had political rights in Palestine. There were thriving native Jewish communities in Palestine long before the advent of modern Zionism. Why ignore them? There were Jewish people there. Why should only Arabs have political rights in an area inhabited by two ethnic groups? Houdini, anyone?

The large number of Arab work migrants coming to Palestine to exploit economic opportunities created by Zionists kinda contradicts your thesis. Arabs in Palestine were mostly foreigners themselves.

Yep, UK Universities, those wonderful breeding nurseries for religious fundamentalism and terrorists.

Form Pappe's answer to Morris:

http://hnn.us/articles/4482.html

I think this passage is self-explanatory.

Pappe is a communist with a clear ideological agenda. Not trustworthy.

 

So let's define YOUR term for "ethnic cleansing"

*** JEWS WHO DRIVE OUT GENTILES ***

Let's be clear. Jews who had been in what are now Muslim countries for
(in some cases) 2,500 years suddenly just got up and left. Assassinations,
burning of synagogues, death threats, destruction of property, revoking of
citizenship etc (which reminded the Jews what they faced in Germany in the
1930's) simply played no part.
And Jews in nations such as France, USA, England never left. Now that is
super strange.

It's almost as strange as the half million Arabs "driven out" of Palestine despite
pleas from the Israeli Govt for them to stay.

I suggest history has been turned on its head.

 

Insane.. What government is ISIS?

 

Arab Jews would still be living in Arab lands of not for European Zionism.

 

Yes and no. Whatever you wish to call it, Zionism is ultimately about the desire of the Jews
for the return to their homeland. That yearning was 1900 years old. Herzl gave it a face.
Herzl came to understand there is no home for Jews anywhere other than in Palestine. Jews
were persecuted even in places like China. Giving Jews a home in places like Egypt or
Uganda would have led to the same thing - persecution, pogroms, genocide and holocausts
would have followed them there, too.

The tragedy is that there were people already living in their ancient homeland. And these
people won't negotiation. It's as if they are saying, "That's not our problem. Go die somewhere."

 

Thanks to a lot of fighting, ISIS doesn't have a govt anymore because
it doesn't have a land.

 

Jews were even banned from leaving Arab nations. It is a fact.
The Jews left anyways. Illigally. Fact.
Foreign pressure was needed for the Arab nations to lift that ban. Fact.
Israel than arranged their flight out of Arab nations. Fact.
Jews got arrested in Iraq and in Egypt for false flag bombings. Fact.
The train let all the way to the Israeli government. People stepped down. Fact.
Jews who operated on these false flag bombings were hailed in as heroes. Fact.

You're just calling this ethnically cleansing, in order to use this as a tit for tat to ethnically cleanse Arabs.
While it's obvious there was no ethnic cleansing of the Jews. Only by Jews. In Arab countries and in Israel.

Nope, that is a myth. We covered this before in this very thread about Haifa, where the Jews were poised to massacre all the males and the women and children too if they would leave the city. They bombed the market full of people as a sign what they were out to do. That's how the Jew thieved the real estate of the Arabs. The Jew homeland made it legal through laws. And since there is zero intent to undo this: That's why the missiles are still flying at them.

And people like you demand to be sympathetic to people who caused or profit from war crimes.

 

Q - In this Haifa incident, what Jews are you talking about? Remember, there were competing groups.
Q - when you see Islamic Jihad, ISIS, Black September, Boko Haram - do these actors represent ALL Arabs?

 

We already discussed this. And the Jew did this. The Jew is profiting of this... regardless of what group they belong to as far as I know.

Biggest group who suffer from them are Muslims. Biggest group who fight them are Muslims.
Do Jews fight Jews to stop these ethnic cleansings?

 

Yes, off the top of my head - there were some terrorist groups that
made life hard for Jews, British and Arabs. In the end the Israeli govt
had to fight one of these groups - can't remember if it was the Lehi,
Urgun or Haganah.
If the general Israeli population is judged by these groups then so too
should all Arabs be judged against the Arab terrorist groups.