End the Scourge of White Supremacy

I think Alexa has nailed it when she perceives the intellectual separated from feeling, in your stance (my words).

In any case: fact is there in no shortage of resources that would preclude modern governments from implementing universal above poverty employment. Full stop.

Unlike in the past, when slavery HAD to exist to enable provision of of goods AND simultaneously in an environment of competitive and life-risking technological advance (and children of working class families HAD to work in coal mines instead of receiving an education, otherwise the coal would never have been exploited (because the economics would not have added up) at the start of the industrial revolution)....today our AI, IT, and robot assisted economies face no such resource constraints and shortages.

 

If you say so. In the meantime, though, my 'feelings' are part of what actually make me typically side with the weak against the strong. But not just my 'feelings": in part, because I am against hegemony and monopoly intellectually and otherwise and believe in the merits of "dualism", the "dialectic", in actual "competition", moving things along in their evolutionary path.

The resources you allude to are produced. They don't exist a priori. And shortages that don't exist today can exist tomorrow if their production is hampered by ideas that lack merit.

I am trying to make this message short (by my standards), so 4 things quickly:
1- AI, IT, robot assisted economies, do not change the underlying dynamics. They just change the technologies that are used to produce things. And the skills and talents required for such production.
2- the same way a system that is poorly constructed in terms of allocations of rewards to productive activity within an economic system will result in poor production, a global economic system that is built on a Ponzi scheme (which is actually the pillar for lessened 'constraints' that you favor), and which similarly rewards the wrong traits and attributes, will see perverse incentives for useless activity and rewards for such activities. The US and the UK have both lost their productive edge for that reason.
3- "from each according to ability, to each according to need", will not work. Not at any level. From each according to ability, to each according to merit, is what would ultimately work best.
4- not just the global economic system, pegged to the US dollar, is ultimately fraudulent, but the capitalist economic systems as they exist in reality, are also fraudulent. To get to the point where you develop all the 'conditions' for a perfectly competitive economic system is excellent. But it requires a totally different system than the ones that claim the mantle of capitalism.

 

I living wage is not deserved for just showing up to work. The minimum wage is a growth stopper even. Companies are proving that without the raiders of minimum wage most major companies are paying much more than 7.25 as their base rates.

Equality of opportunity can not be garunteed just as equality of outcome can not be garunteed.

I never said anything about segregation so I dont know what brought that up. I believe the government should remove race from their decision making and go strictly off financials. No one should be treated differently based off the color of their skin. Get rid of the welfare state and get people to believe in themselves.

 

Ah yes, competition DOES have creative characteristics...but also destructive ones.

So now we close to identifying your error.

All the resources in the Universe DO exist "a priori". The sustainable production of desirable goods and services in the desired quantity is a matter of management of resources made available by technology and labour (increasingly intellectual labour).

Yes.... including ideas like yours that preclude creation of money in the public sector (when government spends debt-free money (via treasury and central bank....in the nation's own currency - get it?) into the economy) AS WELL AS creation of money in the private sector when commercial banks LEND money into the economy (by creating deposits for credit worthy customers).

You prefer to be side-tracked by the state of the current global finance ponzi and implications for international trade and devaluation - who cares about once-off devaluations that have minor consequences for the local citizens apart from an improvement in export competitiveness - but the above money creation processes available to sovereign currency issuers are simple fact.

and if slavery is no longer required to create these technologies, the change in underlying dynamics is vast.

Resources are virtually unlimited; war, slavery, and competition have in the past been necessary elements in mankind's ongoing mastery of technology, but it's now time for a new approach based on elevating co-operation over competition (as suggested above in my opening remark) by engendering separate wealth creating activity in the public and private sectors (a combination of communism and capitalism, if you like)

Confused conflation of concepts in that statement, some of which I have addressed above.
Fact: the person maintaining the amenity of a beautiful public park is as significant - in a modern automation-aided economy - in "wealth creation" as the person growing wheat or designing a robot that will produce vehicles.

I actually agree 100% with that statement (I agree Marx's proposition fails as you say) PROVIDED
"to each according to merit", includes as a matter of public policy choice, that "merit" is set at the "socially acceptable" minimum level.

And there is no actual economic reason why this minimum cannot be set by government in our era of near unlimited productive capacity (when nations are actually fighting one-another for market access for their production....)

Totally agree, but:

1. There is no shortage of resources in the world, only the capacity to develop them.
2. In our era of increasing automation, this capacity will be enhanced by co-operation between governments overseeing competition between individuals based on merit, with appropriate reward.

 

Far out, man!

 

Seattle's statue of Lenin remains unguarded.

 

"OMG Rarely have I become aware of such inhumanity. In the video below the narrator says more than once that Slave owners gave up their morality for money. No slave owners and others involved in this debauchery gave up their humanity.

I heard a black American woman on one of the marches trying to justify why slaves tolerated being slaves. I am guessing some racist was taunting her. She said they tolerated it because the consequences of trying to escape were too awful. She was wrong. Slaves tried to escape all the time. All in the South were involved in catching them and acting inhumanely to them....and it spread to the North. People being offered money to hand in escaped slaves and not minding even if they were not escaped slaves. Eventually some in the North started protesting this constant inhumanity."

I think that you're misrepresenting the point.

It's irrelevant that people escaped, or attempted to escape. Some chose to not take the risk. This is obvious. You cannot prove me wrong.

"I don't believe people are responsible for what those who came before them did - providing they acknowledge it and where possible make amends. I don't think I have ever seen a country born of such inhumanity. With the rise in the US of this kind of thinking it looks like the inhumanity was passed down to many. What a joke the US was trying to get people to believe they were the land of the 'free' and had any moral integrity."

Who do I make amends to? There are no living slaves. No member of my family lived in this country during those times. Maybe the Eastern-European countries, of my heritage, should also make amends?

Maybe there should be a restitution tax levied on all immigrants from "white" countries.

 

The person engaged in maintaining the amenity of a public park is not "just showing up to work". There is an infinite amount of socially useful work that needs to be done, if the private sector cannot employ everyone at above poverty level. Wealth creation CAN occur in the public sector as well, because robots designed as a result of public education are increasingly creating wealth.

This is just the assertion of an inadequate ideology re minimum wage.

Equality of opportunity is a basic right.

(The OP is about white supremacy; many conservatives here are saying that equality of opportunity exists because segregation has been outlawed. I'm pleased you are not one of them, if that is the case).

1. "get rid of the welfare state"

Check.

2. "get people the people to believe in themselves"

How? ie, imagine you are in government; how would you do that?

 

"2. "get people the people to believe in themselves"

How? ie, imagine you are in government; how would you do that?"

By providing a useful education?

 

In a genuinely competitive system that is based on merit, it destroys that which is not competitive/meritorious. Or, in my theology, it destroys falsehood on the path towards truth.

The resources that exist a priori aren't usable, without the production that is required to turn them into usable form. Even those things which are produced in great quantity, can become scarce if the system doesn't have the correct mechanism geared towards encouraging production. (For me, parenthetically, the real value of the production isn't even in sustaining people or giving them treats, but serves as an engine towards creating the conditions for an enlightened society and, eventually, the evolutionary path which will see humans, less animals and more like the kind of 'uberman' -- not the one Nietzsche in Thus Spoke Zarathustra had in mind -- that Tusi, Rumi, and others before and after in the true Iranian tradition, had alluded to).

Maybe, maybe not. The issue is what system chooses between ideas that have merit and ideas that don't? I have a system in mind for that purpose. I have hinted at it, but can develop its contours sufficiently here. I can say a little more about it, in the following passage in small fonts In the system I have in mind, whose 'ideas' are better or worse, would emerge from academies which train both 'imitators' for the masses and 'sources of emulation' (drawn from the best and brightest in society, who are committed to truth for its own sake and who are subsidized against genuine material needs and who themselves otherwise shun material extras used as treats for the masses). We don't have that right now, anywhere, as dogma and material interests do corrupt the path to enlightenment even in the academic world, but until we have that, the next best place to 'test ideas' is to develop them in published form, find those ideas gain acceptance among academic peers, become a 'source of emulation' (a noted philosopher, thinker, economist or expert) and go from there. As neither of us have traversed that path (I am working on it, for now, neither of our ideas can be judged for their merit or lack thereof, except as it might or might not be convincing to the others who are exposed to them. Of course, snake oil salesman used to be quite convincing too, which is one reason why I ultimately don't agree with scholarship winning by popularity contests.

I don't agree there is any magic formula to bypass what is needed for true, worthwhile, production. The rest are all the same: fraudulent schemes. And fraudulent schemes have the same consequences overtime as the most popular and encompassing of them all, namely the global economic Ponzi scheme.

I am NOT worried about 'devaluation': in fact, I have stated the opposite. It would be even appear more 'cost free' than you imagine. You need to actually read what I had written. But some of the things that appear 'cost free' are actually the costliest of all.

Anyway, I have addressed my views on the economics of what you call MMT. You have not addressed the actual points I had made before several pages ago on this issue. And until you do, the arguments about bits and pieces here and there, aren't going to get to the fundamentals at issue. So, instead, let me just highlight the things we agree. That is quite a lot by itself.

I have no problems with 'safety nets' and 'acceptable minimum level', but not in the way you have in mind. I find those valuable in a totally different context -- and only if designed with much better thought than western socialist thinking. Otherwise, they would really not yield the results you are looking for. But since we agree on some of the objectives, and since western ideas are in vogue, you will have plenty of chances to find laboratories to engage in the process of 'trial and error'. As long as you are willing to learn from errors, and not become dogmatic and close your eyes to them, it is all fine. It is part of the process that we, collectively, need to move forward, learn and become more enlightened.

If we could freeze the consequences, and the only issue was distribution of wealth, it could be done easily. Even without the costs you imagine. In fact, the Ponzi scheme economy in the US gives it that chance much more so than your MMT theory. It is the consequences that could be troubling to some. To some for totally wrong (greedy, unenlightened, reasons) and to others (even those without the same greed playing a role in their objections).

 

That whites are a minority in cities such as New York?

 

All of which can be had on a minimum wage if one has a budget and lives within their means.

 

And I 'm sure it is not the only place where that is true.

 

Go read.

 

I know

I know

A eureka moment epiphany plus.


Set up geographic areas with no White people allowed
Let's witness their administration better than my HOA or Compton, California.

​

Moi

​

 

I don't even know what white supremacy is. With all due respect to my native American ancestors, they didn't even have the wheel when the whites arrived. So I am grateful to God for the white man. Whites invented everything that blesses our lives. From the printing press and the translation and mass production of the Bible, (which btw is why they depicted Jesus as white) to indoor plumbing, the combustion engine, repeating rifles, electricity, refrigeration, 4 wheel drive trucks, computers, and nearly everything in between. Whites are a Godsend. Not to mention our nearly divine founding documents and freedom. Is white supremacy, being successful? Is it prosperity? Or is it simply a desperate complaint, born of envy, jealousy and covetousness. I am sick of the complainers and fault finders. They can go to hell.

 

So...here is the problem facing us: .

"You are living in poverty, your neighbourhoods are like war zones, your schools and hospitals are broken, your young men are in
prison..."

1. Who provides this "useful education"?
2. Where is it provided, if not in the ghetto?
3. How are students living in broken homes able to study and to graduate?
3. Who provides the employment for the graduates, in the current inadequate neoliberal system which mandates a level of unemployment (NAIRU) as a means of controlling inflation?

 

Yes, you hit the nail square on the head.

First, before anything else, we must ensure that every neighborhood in the country is a safe place to live. That doesn't mean fewer police. It requires more police. My proposal would require one armed policeman per city block. Additionally, there would be one unarmed police liason officer, per city block. 24/7 for both.

No change can occur, without first making all neighborhoods safe.

Then, we absolutely must get back to teaching our children the basic tenets of a well rounded education. If we don't dump the so-called 'progressive' ideas of "micro-agressions", and safe spaces, and hate for old dead "white" guys, we are doomed.

Once neighborhoods are made safe and the residents become property educated, they will start businesses and outside businesses will move in.

As things are now, any business owner is a fool to stay and get looted and then firebombed.

 

Indeed I have addressed your points; you obviously missed the post alerting you to my transference of the discussion to the MMT thread:

http://www.politicalforum.com/index.php?threads/mmt-overcoming-the-political-divide.569365/page-23

See post #554 in the above-linked MMT thread, (which addresses your post #417 in this thread, several pages back).

I have copied this also and transferred it to post #555. in the MMT thread.

 

Well, OK so far...but at the same time the ghettos themselves will need to be bulldozed one block at a time, and replaced with functioning communities in which everyone is employed at above poverty level.

1. First sentence in the above paragraph: Agree.

2. "'progressive' ideas of "micro-agressions"...I'm trying to guess what "micro-agressions" are... google gives this:

"A micro aggression is a subtle expression of bigotry. An example of a micro aggression is telling an immigrant, "Wow, you're so articulate." The problem is that it suggests you assumed he would be unable to speak clearly."

So how do we educate people about the racist bigotry of the type that led to the genocide in Tulsa in 1921? And the Confederacy economic racism? And Churchill's cultural supremacist beliefs.

Admittedly, "micro-aggressions" as a basis for action (eg pulling down statues), rather than knowledge of history, is misplaced and a waste of time and energy. But you seem to be as concerned with identity politics as the despised 'Left'.

In short, bigotry begets bigotry.

At least you have now identified another of your despised "progressive ideas" which can now be included with "hating America" and "teaching students how to riot".

You have omitted the simultaneous necessity of ghetto clearance, AND you have not addressed the issue of unemployment as a method of price control in the obsolete neoliberal system. Meaning not everyone can start their own small business and prosper.

Indeed.......

 

I read what you had to say. Lets have that discussion in that thread -- and I already posted a response to what I consider one of the more 'simple' parts of the much difficult and involved equation.

 

To move away from economics, and to the ideology of 'white supremacy', let me post these excerpts from the so-called 'father' of (pseudo) scientific racism, Gobineau, with particular focus on his comments and experience with IRAN.

Gobineau was totally wrong on many issues, but his errors were not necessarily the ones that others (many who were equally racist) began to highlight. To get to his most fundamental errors (i.e., Aryans=Nodics (false); Aryans= responsible for all human civilizations in history (false); Aryans mixing with non-Aryans bringing decline of civilization (false))) will be illuminating. It will be illuminating once you understand that the "real Aryans" were actually a mixed race; that civilization was never produced by 'pure" Nordics anywhere; and once you actually do study the history and sources from the country that captivated Gobineau like no other. But with better command of Persian and a better understanding of its history than Gobineau.

Once you do, buried under the pile of materialist ideology that has captured much of the world and Iran too, you might begin to understand how even in its poorest nadir, a French aristocrat with huge prejudice against 'lower class' European even, would be so comfortable with mingling with lower classes in Iran. Important, because while there is no denying the relationship between socio-economic class and racism, the real story is more complicated still.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arthur_de_Gobineau

p.s.
A fellow who couldn't tolerate lower class Frenchmen and claimed they weren't true Aryans, spent most of his time in Iran as France's ambassador mixing and mingling with the common classes in Iran (among people whose descendants notwithstanding, now a mixed race of "who knows what". A fellow who claimed the best in everything were the "Nordics" (which he wrongly called Aryans), didn't find the same pleasure in Sweden (where he also served as ambassador) as much as he did in Iran. And only if his Persian (Farsi) was as good as he liked to pretend: he read a lot of medieval Persian sources, but seemed to understand them very poorly. Otherwise, he would have been better guided towards enlightenment (the Persian kind) and, perhaps, we would haven't had the ideology that became "Aryan Supremacy", and which took much of its 'pseudo-scientific' legacy from his "Essay on the Inequality of Human Races", to then see even less enlightened flag bearers develop such grotesque and nonsensical theories and ideologies as they did.

 

P.S. there is no "Scourge of White-Supremacy". Can we just admit that the topic is complete and utter crap?

or...

Must we go along with this bullshit in order to enable those nutjobs who live in their own, artificially fabricated realities?

 

Without going much further off topic I'll answer the last question where you say how. If I were the government I would stop telling everybody that all the problems would be fix if only I had x# of years more in office. If we stop guaranteeing things that we cant produce then maybe people and society will be more realistic for what's possible.

 

The data says that whites are NOT a minority in NY City! It's that simple!