Educate yourselves on Ukraine, it's not what your government says

Pootin's an old KGB thug and communist murderer. Please remain American and don't support this madman!

 

You're twisting history here. The Bay of Pigs wasn't US troops invading Cuba. It was financed by the US but it was Cubans against Cubans.
As far as your Turkey references, they are part of NATO. As a reminder, NATO is there because of Russian aggression against it's neighbors. Your logic is.......missing.

So what? The problem with you argument is right in your answer..."but they want to part of NATO". Good for them.

No, that is the point. Everything you said after that statement is meaningless.

No, we see it, we don't agree with it. At all.

Why should I imagine something that would not happen. The US has never shown any reason for Mexico to look for such an alliance. But to answer your query, yes, the US would react and in your imaginary world we would invade and take over Mexico.

Yeah, when Russia invaded and took them over. They didn't ask them to join the USSR like NATO did.

In you imaginary world, Texas would allow Russia/China forces to set up shop on their soil?

Yeah, we were and we did the same thing to Europe in WWII

Good for you, you look at all viewpoint.......and somehow you think Russia is "right".

 

a police force doesn't go into a country like vietnam and burn down villages and destroy forests. Neither does it get to invade another country under false pretenses (Iraq, second war).

Let me make this clear. I am on the Unites States side. United States is the most democratic and free nation on earth, radical leftists and marxists from within threaten this enviable status U.S. has, but it's reality today.

My point is that whilst China, Russia are authoritarian regimes which suppress facts, control media, our government does spread propaganda as-well. They lied about Vietnam, about Iraq and with Russia, they always tell us one side of the story. Whilst i'm against what Putin is doing, i can see how the west played a part in getting us to this point. it has been escalating since the 08 NATO declaration that Ukraine and Georgia were going to become part of NATO. What i do is i flip the scenario on it's head - Texas = Ukraine and assume Texas one day separates from US. Russia/China = NATO and one day it's declared that Texas will form an alliance with Russia/China and have their military forces on the ground, in Texas. Would it be a red line for U.S.? Would U.S. invade Texas? I think YES and without any hesitation given the history of what they have done militarily.

 

Yeah, to stop the spread of Communism. You do know that Communist China was suppling North Vietnam......just like North Korea...why didn't you mention that?

If you actually think you think you're seeing things more clearly than my counter arguments I can recommend a good optometrist.

You have not made that case at all.

 

Truth be told, I can understand the significance of Crimea to Russia; it's is their only access to a warm water port/waterway. That's strategic survival in the big picture, subs, etc. But the entire Ukraine, that butts them right up to NATO the same reason they claim to not want that to happen? I am missing the bigger picture here but it's a long time I have not thought about military world dominance personally.

 

The Bay of Pigs can be compared to the current war in Donbas. An uprising of locals supported by a power with interest.

Russia said they weren't going to invade but did. They hid their intentions lying until the last minute. They then said it was a humanitarian mission tp protect the People of the east with a peacekeeping force, another lie if you will; no mention of NATO or the EU.They seem uninterested in negotiations and have refused to discuss it with the Ukranians. They have not been attacked by the Ukraine. They are not asking the Ukrainians to refute NATO, but to overturn their government leaders so they (Russia) can choose a new ones. They are threatening the rest of the world to stay away or pay severe consequences.

Oh, You forgot the part where in 2014 the Russians invaded the Ukraine and annexed the Crimea.

No one has attacked Russia. None of Russia enemies are in the Ukraine.

 

who's supporting him? it's about spreading the blame of what has led to this point, not supporting his actions.

 

Don't matter what the US did. Comrade Pootin is the issue at the moment. Please keep focused.

 

Trying to get the left to understand motivations of Russia or China would help if they are gonna make voting choices come election time.

Ukraine should have remained a satellite state.

This same **** happened with Georgia. We started talking up NATO memberships and Russia put an end to that pretty ****ing quickly.

Russia and China are authoritarian right now. They each have no interest in western style democracy. They will each act very aggressively if we keep expanding NATO to their doorstep.

And if we provoke them they will react. And then you can feign outrage and ignorance when it does happen.

 

I have answered your so called "core point" in other posts.

 

So he can't occupy Ukraine so he invades it so they don't become part of NATO (which you have already said Ukraine wants to do) and you think it makes sense.

 

NATO promised not to move 1 inch East of Germany in exchange for Germany's reunification. Since then, it has expanded 5 times to the East, as well as destroyed Yugoslavia and invaded several other countries.

You can only spit in someone's eye so many times before they sock you in the mouth. All Ukraine had to do was execute the Minsk Peace Agreements. Instead they begged for cash and weapons from the West, the later being a violation of the Minsk Agreements. When a nuclear power says you're crossing a red line, you ought to put your ego aside and listen with an open mind.

This entire mess is the result of Western interference, starting with the 2014 Coup (aside from the repeated NATO Expansion).

 

And to hell with what the people of Ukraine want...you know, the ones who elected those leaders.
And you say I have to look at it from Russia's point of view to see how the west is wrong with it's treatment of Russia. Get serious.

 

Regardless of whether Putin or Trump supporters are left or right. They're definitely disgusting.

 

I agree with your post other than this one line. Vietnam wasn't a mistake. Communism had to be stopped. The problem with Vietnam is we never tried to win the war. The rules were so convoluted it made it impossible for the military leaders to win. But.....
Vietnam, Korea the Cold War in Europe were all about the US (and it's allies) putting a stop to the spread of Communism. All those factors and others like Cuba led to the eventual collapse of the Soviet Union. Regan didn't cause it, he was the last President in line when it happened.

 

They have and over a decade.... consistently, calling it a red line. If you can't accept this fact, then these arguments can be challenging.

 

Russia's reaction is the reason there IS a NATO. Where is the ignorance in this scenario?

 

Communism wasn't stopped in Vietnam. It continues as a communist country to this day. Perhaps I should have said that Vietnam was a mistake since the U.S. didn't have the will to win. Make a list of the countries converted from dictatorship to democracy. There are a few but the U.S. wasn't what caused it.

 

western propaganda though is to always view NATO are a non-aggressor, benign alliance and russia. China as the evildoers. Their propaganda has been largely effective in garnering support for their actions.

I do not condone Putin's actions but there is enough blame to go around, NATO IS A THREAT to Russia and Ukraine's attempt to become NATO member is a red line which Putin has drawn very clearly, for over 10 years. I think Putin decided this was the time to take harsh actions to attempt to eliminate this threat.

 

Not true

Formed in 2014 and collapsed in 2015. Nice try

 

Prove your "fact". Again it goes to the point of where does Russia get off telling Ukraine what they can and can not join. Fatal flaw in your argument.

 

I understand that and didn't dispute it......but I think you got the point.

 

Where has NATO been an "aggressor"? Have they occupied countries I'm unaware of?

 

Check

https://nsarchive.gwu.edu/briefing-...on-what-gorbachev-heard-western-leaders-early

Mate

https://www.chathamhouse.org/2020/0...ssias-war-eastern-ukraine-0/minsk-2-agreement

 

Seems you're unaware of a lot.