Educate yourselves on Ukraine, it's not what your government says

Two things
1) From your link: "The documents reinforce former CIA Director Robert Gates’s criticism of “pressing ahead with expansion of NATO eastward [in the 1990s], when Gorbachev and others were led to believe that wouldn’t happen.”[1] The key phrase, buttressed by the documents, is “led to believe.”
There was never anything in writing.
2) These were talks with the Soviet Union....which collapsed shortly after and the countries in question ASKED to join NATO when they were given their sovereinty again.

My king is no longer in danger

From your link:"It is precisely because Minsk-2 reflects this stalemate on the battlefield that it is an inherently contradictory document. As noted, the agreement makes the return of the border to Ukrainian control contingent on a political settlement agreeable to Russia and its proxies. However, it also includes provisions favouring the re-establishment of Ukrainian control over Donbas before a settlement has been finalized."
"Furthermore, special status as set out in Minsk-2 – let alone the even more extreme demands made by Russia in May 2015 – is simply unworkable."

I believe I just took your Queen

I think I'm more aware than some here.

 

Luckily, the western world doesn't listen to cowards like you and stands up to Russian aggression.

Pootin, we're coming and teach you what you mo'fuXXer did wrong!

 

I don't watch most of the Ukraine-Russia war coverage from the media. Nor do I trust it. It's all propaganda with few verified facts. Worthless!

Of course, the historical record will be written by the winners, and it will be propaganda as well. And I'll miss the details of whatever happens live before it's covered up.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.

 

And if we provoke them they will react. And then you can feign outrage and ignorance when it does happen.

The western world doesn't fear Russkie Terrorism.
We're not cowards like you, Pootin boy.

 

Incase you hadn't noticed, Biden hasn't entered the war...he's holding up on Nato land, content to watch Ukraine burn. This is Georgia all over again.

Not like I want Ukraine to go through this. This was all avoidable with proper diplomacy and learning how to deal with people you don't like.

 

Nope, Comrade Pootin's a mad psychopath and dictator. There was no way we could dissuade him from his belligerence. Pootin is the Adolph Hitler of the 21st. century.

 

You need to learn a bit more about the world fella, its a bit more complicated then that.

 

As much as I learn, none of this will make warmonger and communist pupil Puutin look any better.

 

You need to understand Putin's goals first instead of demanding that he change.

His people love him.

They especially love him when he does stuff like this. That's what they want over there. They like how they are and they want to keep it that way. Putin justifiably sees any western influenced nation on his doorstep a threat to his sovereignty. Just as we would if they tried to install a dictatorship in Canada. He's spoken many times in the past with regards to what he would consider a threat to his sovereignty and a NATO member in Ukraine is one of them.

We are just pushing Russia towards China. And they both have Nukes. Corner Russia and I fear they will actually use them. Is that your goal? Is Ukraine being a peaceful but non Nato member worth that when you could simply wait for the Putin era to **** off and Russia to evolve naturally?

All that's going to happen is death and destruction for Ukraine. That's it. Russia is going to go in, beat the **** out of the place...send a message and either leave with their own pro government installed or occupy. Just as we did in Iraq and Afghanistan and pretty much everywhere because that's what we do. Sanctions? They've been sanctioned before. It's not going to stop him. Super sanctions? Not gonna change anything. Putin feels his sovereignty is at stake. You can tell this by what he's said in the past.

Watch this. Learn. There are bigger concerns here that this is going to feed into.

 

Russia thinks it's a great power that has a "sphere of influence." You may not believe that, but that's what Russia thinks. The USA thinks it's a great power that has a "sphere of influence." You may not believe that, but Americans do, and have codified it as the Monroe Doctrine.

In other words, it helps to understand how the other guy views things. That seems to a perspective not much in favor with the current administration, but it's useful.

 

it's impossible to have an intellectual conversation regarding the possible motives of Putin and where he's coming from and what we should do about it. People just shoot from the hip with emotion.

 

OK, I say we cross that bridge if we ever get there.
In the mean time, If the US were to ever have another civil war, how do you think the world would react? Wouldn't they send in assistance then?
Wouldn't Russia and China, side with Texas, as we are siding with Ukraine?

The difference is, Having the US as an ally means you win wars..Having China, or Russia as allies means you lose wars. What is Russia's track record on defending its allies anyway? Whats China's..They don't do a very good job watching out for each other backs do they?
They abandoned Afghanistan, Iran, etc etc. Who the heck would want them as their defense force?

 

Yet the US has been doing that for years.
Funny how that works

 

And we have no right either.

 

That's true. To some people, discussing motives and how the other side views things seem like treason, making reasoned discussion almost impossible. I'm still struggling to understand how the same people who gave the Soviet Union the benefit of the doubt each and every time are now anti-Russian crazy.

 

The left is brain locked into anything anti Trump. The Russians are coming the Russians are coming.
If you even try and discuss options Russia has you're a Putin puppet.
But its expected from the low educated bunch. I doubt it will ever change

 

LoL..... the new patriotic left, boldly spewing their virtue and courage behind their keyboards.

America is not insane, it will not send in troops. No, what America will do is sell lots of military hardware and enrich the American war profiteers. America is playing a very dangerous game. If Putin loses this war and it puts his life in danger, there isn't a single *******n thing stopping him from unleashing his nuclear arsenal which would wipe America off the map. We of course would respond by wiping them off the map. Perhaps China would survive the holocaust but you sure as hell would not. No sane person should want Putin to lose and put him in a position where he cannot win.

 

Well they feel that we are dictating and pushing western interests right at their doorstep. They've warned us if we try and do that they will get extreme. The further we try to enforce it I fear the more extreme they get.

And they have 100's of nukes and a sub somewhere off our coast...so. Ya. Maybe Brandon should have done a better job of enforcing the idea that Ukraine wasn't joining NATO?

 

Did someone say war profiteers?

 

But the US does.

Magnificent hypocrisy. We can assert the Monroe Doctrine when Russia puts missiles in Cuba, but Russia cannot do the same when we put missiles in Ukraine. Supreme hypocrisy so typical of the US.

 

Use some common sense. Putin has NATO countries on his border right now and Ukraine isn't one of them. It is actually a buffer between Russia and NATO. If he takes Ukraine he will add more of NATO on his new border - Poland, Romania etc. This can't possibly be to defend Russia from NATO. It is illogical and an excuse. This is geographic expansion. It couldn't be more obvious.

 

He's going to wreck the place and let Ukraine remain a buffer state with a government that's more inline with Russia and not the west.

That's my guess to all of this. Like Georgia.

He's been VERY clear in the past how he views the idea of Ukraine becoming a NATO ally. Nobody apparently was listening. And now Ukraine pays the price for it.

 

I think we're all aware of the cold war, and in my opinion the cold war was a mistake. The idea that democratic countries could not have bilateral ties with communist countries caused many "smaller" wars, displacing hundreds of thousands as well as creating the muhajeeden. It wasn't our brightest moment in foreign affairs by far.

 

I think it is an excuse.

 

The old Soviet argument was always "what about what US did". It's called whatboutism.