Part 39 of Post Your Tough Questions Regarding Christianity

I answered your question here (post #665 this thread)

Now honor your word and answer my question to you:

Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior and been baptized?

 

A better case for God calling for or arranging human sacrifice. Jepthah's story doesn't depict God Jepthah to kill his daughter, first because Jepthah himself is surprised when its his daughter his vow has him kill (as Matt pointed out), and second because God didn't tell him to make any burnt offering in the first place, nor does he say he is pleased about it. Hence Abe and Isaac being the better case to show child sacrifice being arranged by God, since in that story it is explicit.

 

No Gift, I haven't walked into a bit of trouble because I don't have a habitual habit of misinterpreting Scripture repeatedly unlike you. So the reality it's you again who continually walks himself into trouble because of your interpretation impaired issues and for not knowing the Scriptures of the Holy Bible well enough.

Of course I know that my interpretation is right while yours is wrong. I mean if your interpretation is right then it will make God contradict Himself. And God has never ever and will never ever contradict Himself. Let's not forget Almighty God is perfectly holy, sinless.

God has always been against sacrificing children/humans as a burnt offering. So the vow that Jephthah made turned out to be a sinful one, when he eventually carried out the sacrifice of his daughter as a burnt offering.

Like I said to you God does not infringe upon our free will, He allows us free will to make our own choices/decisions whether they be good ones or bad ones. But of course He always wants us to make the right choices/decisions.

We Read in Scripture:

31 You must not worship the Lord your God the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods every detestable act that the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters as sacrifices to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31 NLT

10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, Deuteronomy 18:10 NLT

The passages above proves that your interpretation is incorrect because God hates the detestable sin of sacrificing your son or daughter as a burnt offering.

Ok Gift thanks for your post, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it and hopefully you've learned something today to get you back on the right track.

 

No .. it isn't as there is no human sacrifice in the Isaac story.

You can go do other places where God orders that a percentage of the female virgins be sacrificed.

and Yes The Spirit of the Lord compelling Jephthah to make the vow i = God compelling Jephthah to make the vow. Claiming that omnipotent God did not know that his daughter was going to come out the door is laughable nonsense .. already covered in post to Mitt which you were supposed to review.

 

You sure you want to stand on this Pillar Mitt - God does not intervene in the affairs of men ? -

Now watch as the trickster gets caught in own web of deceit and learn my young apprentice.

You see Brother Mitt doubling down on his position that God does not interfere in the affairs of men -- then claiming God would not contradict himself .. but here we see it is the Mitt who has contradicted himself .. as We can point to many parts of the Bible where God interferes in the affairs of men - which Mitt now claims could not have happened - negating his literalist position thus contraditing himself.

No Parting of the Red Sea in Mitt's version of the Bible .. no Heardening of the Pharaoh's heart .. or the hearts of numerous others . "As we Read in Scripture"

Congratulations are in order Mitt - you have talked yourself out of the literalist interpretation of the Bible

 

Well I guess if a person is in good health and young, yeah of course I can agree with you AA. But older person I don't think so.

You don't say.

Catch you later AA got to run. Ok thanks for your post.

 

Since when have I not answered your questions .. it is you who consistently fails .. and have failed again .. comitting the sin of Omission while grasping for straws. The answer Jesus gives as the reason for those not who do not get in .. is not doing the will of the father .. Right in 7:21

What part of Only those that do the will of the Father .. is so difficult to figure out ?

21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus has explained what the Will of the Father is .. throughout this sermon .. and he ends the sermon on the same note saying those that do works have a solid foundation in Christ - same as the the passage you are so desperate to quote says .. "By their deeds"

Now to your question ?

"have you accepted Jesus Christ as your Savior" -- What is Jesus saving me from ? -- this question has different meaning depending on the person asking .. have to explain what your version is for me to even be able to venture an answer.

What I will say -- is that I am a follower of the teachings of Christ -- definition of being a Christian in the book of some folks .. probably not yours though. I accept that the Teachings of Jesus in this most famous sermon are from God .. divinely inspired if you will .. Jesus acting as "The Logos" as per John.

Does that count as having accepted Jesus as Savior in your books .. I do not know

"Baptism" -- now on that front .. I have very high standing .. twice have been Baptized ..

 

The Abraham and Isaac story was really about Abraham's faith being tested and so God's intentions were not that He wanted Abraham or "demanded" as you put it to go through with this sacrifice. It was really not that at all but again it was really about this testing of Abraham's faith.

I posted it a while back an explanation from a Christian Ministry that I can't recall. I don't think it came from my fav ministry but anyway I might as well just repost it here because it's obvious you don't know what was really going on.

And for one thing God hates the detestable sin of sacrificing sons or daughters as a burnt offering. So of course God wasn't going to allow Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac.

We Read in Scripture:

31 You must not worship the Lord your God the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods every detestable act that the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters as sacrifices to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31 NLT

10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, Deuteronomy 18:10 NLT


Abraham's Faith Tested

Abraham's faith was being tested by God and Abraham believed that God would bring back Isaac from the dead and so Abraham was seriously going to go through with this sacrifice.

We Read in Scripture:

"Abraham!" God called. "Yes," he replied. "Here I am." "Take your son, your only son--yes, Isaac, whom you love so much--and go to the land of Moriah. Go and sacrifice him as a burnt offering on one of the mountains, which I will show you." Gen. 22:1-2 NLT

When they arrived at the place where God had told him to go, Abraham built an altar and arranged the wood on it. Then he tied his son, Isaac, and laid him on the altar on top of the wood. And Abraham picked up the knife to kill his son as a sacrifice. At that moment the angel of the Lord called to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham! "Yes," Abraham replied, "Here I am!" "Don't lay a hand on the boy!" the angel said. "Do not hurt him in any way, for now I know that you truly fear God. You have not withheld from me even your son, your only son." Gen. 22:9-12 NLT

God knew Abraham's faith, knew that he would kill his son as a sacrifice, so why did God need to test him? Furthermore, If God knows all things, why did He say (through His angel).."I know now" as though He had not known it before? Did God require evidence to be convinced of the faith of Abraham? We will see that something else is at work in this passage.

Scripture tells us God knows all things, past, present, future. Everything that is exists only because He knows it. So for God "not to know" is for the thing not only not exist but unable to exist. All that has being or could possibly have being is known to God. There can be no sense whatsoever in which God looks to the world so as to grow in knowledge of that which He has created. God is all about Truth.

God not only knew Abraham's faith, but also knew Abraham would be willing to offer his son Isaac in a sacrifice. God knows all that will ever be and, while still respecting human freedom, He without error knew all that Abraham would freely choose. So we can be certain that God did not test Abraham in order to discover whether he had true faith.

God "tested" Abraham to make his faith known both to himself (Abraham) and to all the world. God put Abraham to the test as a way of revealing to all people that Abraham is truly the Father of believers.

It happens in Scripture that God is said to “know” something, in the sense that He “makes it to be known.” Likewise, God is said to “not know” something, insofar as he “does not make it to be known.” Thus it is that, in this passage, God tests Abraham – not as seeking knowledge, but as making truth to be known to others.

The angel, speaking in the person of God, says, "For now I know that you truly fear God" It is not as though it is only at this late moment, when Abraham has offered his son Isaac to God, that God has come to know of Abraham’s faith – God was not learning something new here. Rather, it was at this moment that God (through his angelic messenger) has made Abraham’s faith to be known both to Abraham and to all.

In summary, the testing of Abraham was not unto God’s benefit, but for Abraham (the father of the Jewish nation of Israel) sake and ours.

So when God test people it is really for their benefit so they can really see themselves so to speak.

Ok thanks Jolly for your post, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it.

 

There is an explicit demand by God for a human sacrifice in the Isaac story. That he later withdraws it doesn't change that. Sure, he doesn't have Abraham go through with it, but he does demand it.

True. Those are also better than Jepthah's story for this.

God knew. Jepthah didn't. That's the point. And God didn't ask or demand Jepthah to make the vow that he made. Jepthah made a vow too broad than he perhaps intended. It is rare that Matt says something I agree with, but he is correct on that much. The better observation is that God did nothing to stop Jepthah, even though he was clearly closely involved with Jepthah.

 

Testing his obedience, yes. I had that conversation with you before, noting that this is one of many cases in the Bible of obedience trumping morality. A moral end to this story would be Abraham refusing to kill his son, and God then saying "Good. You passed the test". It instead is a story about obeying tyrranical authority.

So yes, it is a story about obedience. But that obedience is being tested by demanding a child sacrifice. God DOES demand that, and Abraham is prepared to comply.
As Giftedone points out there are other stories even better making the point that God demands people kill other people for him, but this one does show him demanding it, and Jepthah's doesn't, so this is a better case of it than Jepthah.

And yet he calls for it. The bible is self-contradictory. That's not news.

You keep saying "faith" when what you mean is obedience, obedience to the point of being willing to kill your children. I'm not up for playing this euphemism game you are playing.
And yes, if God is all knowing, then God certainly knows this all ahead of time. He also knows all the evil man will do ahead of time, and since he is the one who created man and has omnipotence, he is ultimately responsible for all the evil man does. By responsible I don't mean we should blame him. I mean he literally is the cause.

Now you say "believers", when you mean obeyers. You can believe God exists and that God demands X without obeying that command, no? As I've written above, if you don't know God is real or that he wants X, then you can't obey God. God, being omnipotent has the power to make you know. That he doesn't tells us he doesn't intend us all to know he exists or wants X (or that he doesn't exist or doesn't want X). Only if you believe/know an order exists does it make any sense to say you followed or didn't follow it. Again, if you never order a pizza, don't be surprised it doesn't show up at your door.

It is also pretty sad that Abraham had such weak morality that he would blindly obey an authority figure and murder his son. This is an obedience test similar to a gangster handing an unloaded gun to you and telling you to shoot your brother to test your loyalty, while you think the gun is loaded. People who comply FAIL the morality test, they don't pass it. They pass the obedience test. Obedience to power and morality are not the same thing.

 

My question was a simple, straightforward yes-no question. I didn't set the criteria for "savior", "Lord", or "baptism". That was for you to decide for yourself.

Your dodging indicates your answer is no.

 

I agreed there was an explicit demand ... why are you pretending otherwise ?

Better in what way .. the sacrificial demand is not as explicit. in some of the other examples. .. but what difference does it make .. it is crystal clear that the "Spirit of the Lord" compels Jephthah to make the vow. your inability to respond coherently to this point .. is thus-far noted.

You finally admitted that indeed the Spirit intervened .. was there for a reason .. which is good.. Now .. rather than try and avoid and move to other examples .. consider the consequences of acceptance of this reality.

1) God interceded .. arranged for a human sacrifice - and accepted that sacrifice .. according to what the Bible says .. and any Israelite reading the text at the time of the events described would have read it as above .. that it was "The spirit of the Lord" that precipitated the Sacrifice acting at YHWH's behest .. (and not Jesus as they did not believe in Jesus nor the modern Trinity) . Not a single soul living at that time would for a second be second guessing what went down ...

2) there are other instances .. and in fact a reocurring theme of child sacrifice .. YHWH does have all those first born in Egypt sacrificed .. and .. of course the first born "Son of Man" ends up on the sacrificial alter .. adherents eating his flesh .. drinking his blood to this day ..

3) Archaeology backs up - gives creedence/support to the claim Yahweh was one of the Child Sacrifice Gods .. possibily related to Molech/ Milcolm -at the time .. The later polemics against the practice put in by deuteronomist redactors after the 5th century.

4) The Bible itself tells us that the Israelites were raging Polytheists .. regularly putting their Children to the fire .. for at least 4 centuries - Its what the book says .. and says it over and over ... in no uncertain terms .. that the Israelites were raging child sacrificing maniacs The Bibles Words .. Not Mine .. Gods words actually .. in the Bible .. not mine..

 

didn't dodge anything .. that is a pile of deceit and denial.. Told you I was baptized twice .. what part did you not understand .. and why are you claiming I did not answer your question. 2 Times .. Baptized

You asked if Jesus was my savior .. I asked you do clarify .. you have yet to do so .. saying now you didn't set the criteria. If you don't know what your question means .. then why are you asking it. I tried to guess what you meant .. told you I follow the techings of Jesus.. and believe his teachings inspired .. what more than this is involved ..in being saved .. I am baptized .. and believe the teachings of Jesus .. what more is required for Jesus to be one's savior ?

 

Well yes AA, Moses and every person with him did not get lost in the desert. Why we have proof today of it because their descendants are living in the Israel (Promised Land) at this very moment. They reclaimed their Promised Land back in 1948. But you know those Israelites really had a tough history as told in the Scriptures of the Holy Bible. Mostly because they would disobey God, and then God would have to punish them. Quite a remarkable true story I tell ya.

Ok AA thanks for your post, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it.

 

Thats good to know!
That means that the wright bothers are responsible for all the death and destruction bombers caused
and the inventors of the nuke for massacring jap civilians
the inventor of the motor car for these drivers that run them into large crowds
the inventor of gun powder for all the destruction its been used for.
brilliant!

 

I asked the classic question understood by all Christians of all denominations. You couldn’t just say “yes”, you had to obfuscate and be rude (as you are in almost all of your posts to me and everyone else). What would Jesus say about your attitude?

Your answer is clearly “no”.

 

Better in that with Abraham it IS explicit.

No, it isn't. It is only unambiguous that "the spirit came upon him", which is open to interpretation, and I have already seen you and Matt interpret it differently. With Abraham God clearly and explicitly orders it.

That's not what it says here with Jepthah. Elsewhere, yes.

I wasn't there so I don't know. I can't speak for all living there at the time. Nor can you. You say the spirit coming upon somebody means it compelled them. Compel means to force or oblige. Yet at no point in the story does God say he wants this particular vow nor that he is happy to receive it.

I am not Christian and you even have me noting this. That should tell you something. It doesn't say what you claim it to.

Yes. I can see that.

From what I read no. He doesn't convince the Egyptians to sacrifice their children. He kills them without their parents' consent, no? By that measure you could say all who died in the Noah flood or in Gamorah were sacrifices.

Yes, though the cross is not a sacrificial altar, and he rises a few days later, so it's not much if a "sacrifice".

And the weird catholic ritual canibalism thing, how is that sacrifice?

The Bible itself (and Jesus story) is enough to establish that Christianity is a religion focused on a human sacrifice. It is very much about vicarious redemption, obedience to power, and other unethical underpinnings.

But none of that changes the story of Jepthah. You are reading into it. And there is no need, when there are better stories making the same point.

 

your confused, christianity abolished the jew practice of human sacrifice and replaced it with bread. (catholic)
typical atheist, has the misguided impression that everyone on the planet that worships the Christ as God is a traditional BC jew.

 

You are the one being rude - You asked a question which could mean many things .. when asked for clarification .. you tried to put words in my mouth. On the the other hand .. I told you directly what my beliefs were .. not obfuscating and being rude like you are doing.

You were asked a question of clarification. What do you mean by accepting Jesus as savoir ? .. now quit obfuscating and being rude ..and state what you mean.

Then go back to the topic you are avoiding with these irrelevant personal questions - and state why it is you keep running from the teachings of Jesus .. in to the arms of Idol Martin Luther .. trying to replace the words of Jesus .. with the words of your idol Martin.

 

God hates the detestable sin of sacrificing your son or daughter as a burnt offering. Human sacrifice was done by people worshipping false gods, like Molech.

We Read in Scripture:

31 You must not worship the Lord your God the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods every detestable act that the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters as sacrifices to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31 NLT

10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, Deuteronomy 18:10 NLT

21 “Do not permit any of your children to be offered as a sacrifice to Molech, for you must not bring shame on the name of your God. I am the Lord. Leviticus 18:21 NLT

Thanks Gift for your post, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it to correct your error.

 

The Israelites worshiped many Gods - often Sacrificing their Children at the high places .. to Moloch, YHWH and other Gods. It is correct that the Israelites did not spend much time worshiping YHWH .. but when they did .. a child sacrifice or two was not out of the question.. Such as Judge Jephthah .. the Egyptian children -- Judge Samuel showed us YHWH likes the fair virgin sacrifice .. and after all YHWH did sacrifice his own son ..

Seems a bit of a pattern going on here don't you think ?

 

You said God never intercedes in the affairs of humans .. so other than talking yourself out of the literal interpretation of the Bible .. how does this change the Abe-Isaac story. If God did not interfere .. that means the alternate version of the story where Abe goes through with the sacrifice is the true version. Guess we need to add another to the list of Sacrifices to YHWH.

Which God of the OT hates the burnt offering ? certainly not YHWH .. many a child passed through the fire into his loving arms.

Marcion called the God YHWH a demiurge ... do you agree with this characterization ?

 

A little prayer for the GIFTED ONE... seems every thread he is on he is very contentious..

I can only guess that it is perhaps to gain attention and engender interaction with other humans in an otherwise very lonely life were he is overlooked, if not ignored by the real world.
WE can be your friends.. would prefer that you were a Brother.. but Jesus wants us to love everyone.. even our enemies.

 

The Jews were polytheistic until Moses and the Ten Commandments, after that Judaism was monotheistic. The Mosaic Law is unquestionably monotheistic. That does not mean the people followed the Law all the time.

Child sacrifice is also forbidden in the Mosaic Law (Levitticus 18:21, Deuteronomy 12:29-31)

Abraham was asked by God to sacrifice Isaac to see if Abraham truly put God above all. Of course, Abraham was not permitted to actually sacrifice Isaac.

Jepthah is not a story of permitted child sacrifice, its a story of rash promises and lack of faith. When Jepthah faced the Ammonites, God was with him but Jepthah doubted and tried to make a bargain with God - “If you give the Ammonites into my hands whatever comes out of the door of my house to meet me when I return in triumph from the Ammonites will be the Lord’s, and I will sacrifice it as a burnt offering”. Jepthah probably assumed an animal would come out of the house. Since child sacrifice was forbidden, Jepthah was stubborn and cruel, he violated the Law and did what the Lord hates.

Jesus is not a child sacrifice, Jesus as a part of God was a voluntary sacrifice to save people. Its similar to a soldier jumping on a grenade to save his fellow soldiers.

 

The error I'm correcting you on is this false statement of yours, "God interceded .. arranged for a human sacrifice - and accepted that sacrifice .. according to what the Bible says"

My correction of your error had nothing to do with all this other stuff you're now mentioning so senseless for you to deflect away from the issue.

And I showed you passages in the Bible that clearly shows your statement to be false.

Here let me put them up again.

We Read in Scripture:

31 You must not worship the Lord your God the way the other nations worship their gods, for they perform for their gods every detestable act that the Lord hates. They even burn their sons and daughters as sacrifices to their gods. Deuteronomy 12:31 NLT

10 For example, never sacrifice your son or daughter as a burnt offering.[a] And do not let your people practice fortune-telling, or use sorcery, or interpret omens, or engage in witchcraft, Deuteronomy 18:10 NLT

21 “Do not permit any of your children to be offered as a sacrifice to Molech, for you must not bring shame on the name of your God. I am the Lord. Leviticus 18:21 NLT
And so I repeat myself one more time, God hates the detestable sin of sacrificing your son or daughter as a burnt offering. Human sacrifice was done by people worshipping false gods, like Molech.

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ was unjustly/wrongly condemned to death by crucifixion by evil men. For He was innocent of all charges. But He voluntarily sacrificed His life. He was the only person who ever lived that lived a sinless life.

God allowed these evil men to do an unrighteous act, but because of God's supreme wisdom, He turns this unrighteous act into something good, something positive that is done for the benefit of all mankind.

Jesus life is restored on the 3rd day, He is resurrected from the dead and now sinners can be redeemed through their belief and faith that Jesus died to save them from the punishment of their sins. Jesus paid the sin debt for mankind.

This sacrifice at the altar of injustice is the ultimate expression of God's love. Amazingly, in the midst of a monstrous injustice God can design a means of victory.

The just one dies unjustly for the unjust to make them just! The ways and wisdom of God are beyond our figuring out; we cannot understand them until He gives us revelation.

We Read in Scripture:

22 We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

23 For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard. 24 Yet God, in his grace, freely makes us right in his sight. He did this through Christ Jesus when he freed us from the penalty for our sins. 25 For God presented Jesus as the sacrifice for sin. People are made right with God when they believe that Jesus sacrificed his life, shedding his blood. This sacrifice shows that God was being fair when he held back and did not punish those who sinned in times past, 26 for he was looking ahead and including them in what he would do in this present time. God did this to demonstrate his righteousness, for he himself is fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus. Romans 3:22-26 NLT

Our Lord Savior Jesus Christ said,

"For God loved the world so much that He gave His only Son, so that everyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life"---John 3:16 NLT

No, not at all. Not by God anyway, I mean He was always against human sacrifice as He revealed to us in Scripture. Furthermore the sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ was God turning around an unrighteous act done by evil men into something good, something positive that was done for the benefit of all mankind. This was it, just one and done.

But speaking about patterns, the only pattern I see here is you continually misinterpreting Scripture the leads to you into making false statements that needs to be corrected.

Ok thanks Gift for your post, it was a pleasure for me to respond to it to hopefully get you on the right track.